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Interviewer: "Mr Parker, are you a religious man?"
Originally Posted by Jazz4Four
Charlie Parker: "Yes sir, I am a devout musician!"
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08-05-2025 01:00 PM
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I have been a part of that congregation for many years. Originally Posted by Mick-7
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I don’t know how a jazz musician can listen to Bird playing Cherokee and not be inspired. IMHO. Originally Posted by Jazz4Four
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No one has to like anything
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Was that the objective of Bebop? Hmmm. I thought the motivations were to create a jazz that mostly only black men could play because in the mid 40’s a large percentage of cats getting the gigs, outside of Ellington or Basie, were all white. Back then there was a separate and unequal society. You may have read about it? Originally Posted by Jazz4Four
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To increase the potential for black male musicians to get more work (gigs), black men created a musical "style" that doesn't appeal to as wide of an audience as other styles of jazz? Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
(and thus, the potential for more work, wasn't obtained but instead decreased).
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hmmm….did you hear this one with McClean and McCoy?It’s one of my personal uploads. Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
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In the end, it’s the art that matters. Bebop lives. Originally Posted by jameslovestal
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fake news Originally Posted by jameslovestal
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I agree with you, but I didn't wish to be so direction with Christian's post. Originally Posted by djg
The likely motivation for musicians to develop and play bebop was musical and not to enhance their employment opportunities.
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Did I say you had to like him? Originally Posted by Jazz4Four
You don't have to like Shakespeare either. You just seemed to have some doubt about whether or not you were missing some important piece of the jazz language by not listening to him.
He's the crucial piece of the language. Just is. Not liking him is absolutely fine, but also doesn't change what he is or what he did.
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I'd usually rather listen to something else, but I still like him
Is this completely true? Bebop at the center of jazz education? All roads lead to bebop?More in general: My guess is that Bebop was chosen as the center of jazz education for music schools because it is hard to play. And resultantly, Bebop is heralded as the "best" form of jazz. Furthermore, is there even a clear definition of what Bebop is? Joe Pass played Bebop and I love Joe Pass.
I think it's used in education not because of difficulty, rather the clear concepts that can be extracted from bebop soloing.
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1 - Donna Lee was lifted almost note for note from a Fatz Navarro solo, Ice runs red or something like that. Originally Posted by Jazz4Four
2 - No it's not ok. He doesn't have to be your favorite, but... suffice to say, if you don't like it, listen more.
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Youre on the mark there. It’s actually I think quite a bit harder to fit into an academic frame than some later stuff, but I think its central to jazz education* because it’s central to the jazz language. Originally Posted by gmek
*its central to the way people learn jazz, for sure. But a lot of the things people knock about capital J capital E Jazz Ed are about the relative absence of some of the beboppy elements in favor of stuff that’s a little easier to grade. I’m not sure that’s as true today as it used to be though
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Incidentally there’s another early (1942) track by Parker with guitarist Efferge Ware, I hadn’t heard this one before.
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McCoy and Jackie partook in the odd bit of shmaltz it seems. I'll forgive them... Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
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Even in his early 20's Parker here is sounding like a top tier Swing player, as mature as Don Byas or Andre Ekyan, but still different to C. Hawkins. Originally Posted by grahambop
Growing up with Swing obviously makes Parker different to any bopper that started out with Bop, he was never far away from being melodic.
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This got me wondering what is the earliest known recording of Parker. Apparently it is this 1939 solo version of Honeysuckle Rose, which he recorded in one of those booths where you could record a spoken message onto a little record (hence the lo-fi sound presumably).
(He also does a bit of Body and Soul at the end).
Last edited by grahambop; 08-06-2025 at 07:37 AM.
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Indeed. Quite obvious. Simply stated, anyone that doesn’t appreciate Bird will not understand or appreciate jazz. Because also quite obvious that entire edifice of jazz since 1945 that exists to this very day is built on the foundation created by Bird. Plenty of people don’t like jazz. In fact, probably most people today. That’s the world, alas. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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I had the impression reading several bios and studies of Charlie Parker that he was just frustrated with the melodic limits of swing and began experimenting with substitute chords as the basis for lines, and also exploring the value of the upper extensions. None of this would be especially hard for a white musician who knew his horn to do. It's hard to think of, initially, and for some it is hard to get. Louis Armstrong, possibly the greatest and most loved black musician of that era, never got it, never liked it. Once the music is out there being played, I can't imagine why it could not be dissected and reverse-engineered by any musician who knew his instrument and had big ears, regardless of their ethnicity or social location. Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
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Ah, so now the topic is about social justice? Oh I see. Is this another lecture? Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
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I'm not hiding behind anything. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
First, I didn't dismiss Parker. And, I even used the word "cheeky" - apparently you glossed over that.
I simply stated I don't get why everyone has to like him. People answered, and I appreciated the responses. I listed to "Bird and Diz"the other day, and enjoyed it. Maybe I had been listening to the wrong albums for my taste.
Aside from the handlful of real pros on this forum, it is a forum for hobbyists. Yes, I am a hobbyist. Correct me if I'm wrong, but so are you—I don't care how "seriously" you take it. Your affinity for your hobby doesn't permit you to get on here and take your frustrations out. Spare me your lectures.
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That's not my experience.I've known many guys over the years that were competent jazz players who weren't big Bird fans.Many people can't get into the sound of those old recordings.When i was young i used to listen to my uncle's Django records.My friends who played guitar didn't understand how i liked listening to those dated records.But then when guys like Bireli played gypsy jazz with modern recording techniques they loved it. Jazz4Four,like or dislike whatever you want,you can still play jazz without liking Bird. Originally Posted by Navdeep_Singh
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Small group bebop became en vogue, in part due to US tax laws in the WW2 period, where big band with vocals were heavily taxed to generate revenue (IMAGINE LIVING in a TIME where increased government coffers were contingent on taxing jazz bands!—What Bizarro World is this??) THE CABARET TAX of 1944, in specific:
“Here's a breakdown:
- Purpose: Enacted in 1944 during World War II, the Cabaret Tax was a wartime measure intended to generate revenue for the war effort.
- Mechanism: It was a 30% excise tax levied on the gross receipts of venues that served food and drinks and also offered music and dancing (excluding solely instrumental or mechanical music).
- Impact on Big Bands: The tax made it financially difficult for venues to afford hiring large big bands, as the tax was applied to their gross receipts, including food and drink sales, according to WRTI. This led many establishments to downsize or eliminate dance floors and floor shows to avoid or lessen the impact of the tax.
- Unintended Consequences: The Cabaret Tax is believed to have contributed to the decline of the big band era and the rise of smaller jazz ensembles and the development of bebop, a more instrumental and less danceable style of jazz, according to the American Enterprise Institute.
- Tax Duration and Changes: The tax was later reduced to 20%, then to 10% in 1960, and was finally repealed in 1965” later reduced to 20%, then to 10% in 1960, and was finally rep
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