POLL - Time it takes to learn pro level jazz improv?

[Christian Miller]

I’m not 100% straight ahead is a style. You say ‘yes I’m free, what’s the gig?’ and they be like ‘straightahead, just some standards’ and i translate that to ‘bring a jazz box and don’t get too frisky.’

Historical styles of jazz seem me to more specific - Chicago, Kansas city swing, bebop, hard bop, post bop, mmmbop etc etc.

I think actual bop might be a bit frisky for those sorts of calls.

But anyway, Bop is a cornerstone of basically all modern jazz phraseology and swing. It’s a lot of what we think of as jazz.

Even the players who say weren’t into it, still seemed to have picked it up.

You really need to listen to what came before to appreciate how much it established.

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[Mick-7]

I’m not 100% straight ahead is a style.

"Mainstream jazz" is another name for it, is its vocabulary distinguishable from be-bop vocabulary, and would the approach to learning it be any different?

But that question may just open another can of worms....

[JazzIsGood]

Since there was some talk earlier about people playing with pros as kids, like Metheny playing at 12 etc, I thought I would bring to your attention a new player that went pro very young.

His name is Milan Angelo Novak. He's got some videos on YT and it looks to me like he was playing Charlie Parker heads at age 4 or 5 years old. Not sure how old he was when he started playing with pros but he's maybe 17-18 now and looks like he's been doing it for years. Fantastic player!

Here's some links-

[djg]

the apprenticeship system.

[AllanAllen]

To me, straight ahead jazz means it's going to be songs from the real book, it's not fusion and it's not freakout jazz. It's also not going to be 240bpm all night long.

That's what I'd expect anyway.

[Christian Miller]

To me, straight ahead jazz means it's going to be songs from the real book, it's not fusion and it's not freakout jazz. It's also not going to be 240bpm all night long.

That's what I'd expect anyway.

I dunno I did one last Sunday and a lot of it was north of 200, which was tbf quite unexpected and also fun.

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[bediles]

I dunno I did one last Sunday and a lot of it was north of 200, which was tbf quite unexpected and also fun.

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Clang!

[AllanAllen]

I dunno I did one last Sunday and a lot of it was north of 200, which was tbf quite unexpected and also fun.

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Trumpet player in my group has started asking for tunes to be faster. It’s been fun

[Christian Miller]

Clang!

Haha fair - wasn’t my fault tho, I had no agency in the matter.


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[Christian Miller]

Trumpet player in my group has started asking for tunes to be faster. It’s been fun

Yeah I mean it wasn’t my call. The ballads were denied lol.


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[pauln]

Something to examine in your spare time...

[Al Haig]

Clang!

[wolflen]

Something to examine in your spare time...

Back when,,I was very attracted to the music of Carla Bley..and the harmony books by John Mehegan..I read all I could how musicians
approached the improvised art.

Your attached read is a good overview of the physical and physiological aspects and how some guitarists go beyond basic mechanical
harmonic/melodic playing of a tune and explore the "micro/macro" effects of time and memorized practice patterns on playing
an improvised approach to music. And it gets into the very subtle definition of "swing"

It examines the solos of four top guitarists..Ben Monder being one. While it is almost painful to listen to Monder talk about his music in an interview
as it seems he is analyzing every word he is going to say, this study by-passes that and offers some insight into his complex way of playing.

Thanks for posting this study.

[arnie65]

Before we answer the question at hand, we must indubitably ask: "at what age". If a 4-5 year old starts learning jazz guitar with a descent level of constancy and a good teacher, by the time he's 9 he'll be improvising like a pro. This is not my opinion, it's a fact that's been proven time after time. Just go on youtube and search for kids improvising in different instruments, some as young as 6 and 7 yrs old. Here's are some examples, Pat Martino, Bireli Lagrene, and the latest guitar sensation, the young Matteo Mancuso (just to name 3). They all started very early, with parents that encouraged them and provided the right environment to learn. The earlier you start, the shorter it will take, it's been proven scientifically, when immigrants come to the U.S. , the kids learn english in a very short amount of time, while it takes the parents years and years to learn. A teenager will learn jazz guitar faster than a 40 yrs old, given the same teacher, and amount of hours studying and practicing. So, the question is not "how long it takes" , but "How old are you when you start". This is not meaning to discourage anyone older from starting, it's only to state that the younger you are, the shorter amount of time it will take. I've met guitarists that started in their 30's or 40's, and are incredible improvisers.




Arnie...

[Christian Miller]

I don’t flipping know?


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[Tal_175]

Before we answer the question at hand, we must indubitably ask: "at what age". If a 4-5 year old starts learning jazz guitar with a descent level of constancy and a good teacher, by the time he's 9 he'll be improvising like a pro. This is not my opinion, it's a fact that's been proven time after time. Just go on youtube and search for kids improvising in different instruments, some as young as 6 and 7 yrs old. Here's are some examples, Pat Martino, Bireli Lagrene, and the latest guitar sensation, the young Matteo Mancuso (just to name 3). They all started very early, with parents that encouraged them and provided the right environment to learn.

They didn't just start early and had eager parents, they were also highly gifted. 99% percent of kids who start at the age of 4 end up being pretty mediocre and you never hear about them.

[Lionelsax]

Stop playing for free and you will be a pro.

[Tal_175]

Also some people start in their 20s or even 30s and in a few years end up being better than most people who started as kids. Life isn't fair.

[Christian Miller]

I think one of the main qualifications is leaving the house


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[kris]

Stop playing for free and you will be a pro.

Not necessarily .... on the jam session professionals play for free too ...

[Lionelsax]

Not necessarily .... on the jam session professionals play for free too ...

It's called a trap, and you play again and again for free.
"Come on you did it for free the last time, why do you want to get paid ? Remember the first beer was free, you ate something, I've got to live too. Music is a pleasure, you've got a wonderful life !"

[kris]

It's called a trap, and you play again and again for free.
"Come on you did it for free the last time, why do you want to get paid ? Remember the first beer was free, you ate something, I've got to live too. Music is a pleasure, you've got a wonderful life !"

Perhaps...
I had a situation where I played a concert at a jazz festival that was well paid and the boss of festival invited the musicians to a jam session and bought dinner.
It was fun.

[Jazz4Four]

As your facility at this improves and your ear develops, you'll start hearing and playing more interesting lines and the more you do this, the better you'll get at it. But learning and memorizing phrases and playing them over chord changes was not a part of this method or at most, it was incidental to it. I found I was progressing much faster using this approach than musicians I knew who were using the method that Tal_175 described - plus they all tended to sound like the musicians they were copying.

This is a bit of a digression from the original post, but this resonates with me. I have always struggled to reconcile the concept of improvisational music and note-for-note transcription. There was a post where someone was very happy with their own playing... and someone asked how they learned to play like that, and he responded that he transcribed his heroes. And that is EXACTLY what it sounded like: other people's phrases, stitched together. I thought the objective of improvisational music is to find your own voice?

[Jazz4Four]

They didn't just start early and had eager parents, they were also highly gifted. 99% percent of kids who start at the age of 4 end up being pretty mediocre and you never hear about them.

Exactly. Plenty of kids start playing ice hockey or soccer at age 4, but a minuscule number of them end up going pro. Sorry to burst people's bubble but it's mostly about talent.

[Jazz4Four]

In terms of the original post, I'd like to address the premise. The implication is that if one starts early enough, and puts enough time in, that they will learn pro-level playing. I have to think that this is delusional.

Music is a hobby for me, and as a result, I'm sure my bar is lower than some of you. But I also see other people on this forum who are fooling themselves to think they'll ever play at a pro level. I'll never play at that level, either—the difference is, I'm not kidding myself. I used to admire the music school people, until I realized the vast majority of music school grads won't ever make a living in music. That said, I respect the heck out of the working jazz pros on this forum who legit make a living doing it.

Can you be a rock star with middling talent? Absolutely. But as we know, advanced forms of music are different (I mean no disrespect to other styles of music; but the demands of jazz and classical exceed most other western genres).