POLL - Time it takes to learn pro level jazz improv?

[Tal_175]

I did already Tal. You replied and quoted it already:



But I can’t align terminology if you won’t actually say what you mean. Which is why I’m asking the question.

The difference is that what I’m saying, and what I believe Joe is saying, and what I THINK most people would say is that vocabulary is content neutral and process oriented … meaning that vocabulary is what I can steal and use, no matter what it is.

You seem to be saying that vocabulary is not content neutral, that it is a particular thing. Meaning listening to a solo, one phrase might be vocabulary, and one phrase might not be. Insofar as I think that’s true, it would be completely dependent upon the listener.

So would you outline what you mean by this or relate it to the audio example I gave with time stamps or something?

Do you think there is such a thing as bebop vocabulary? Even more specifically bebop rhythmic vocabulary, phrasal vocabulary, harmonic vocabulary (use of extensions and such)?

[pamosmusic]

Do you think there is such a thing as bebop vocabulary? Even more specifically bebop rhythmic vocabulary, phrasal vocabulary, harmonic vocabulary (use of extensions and such)?

Tal. To quote a dear friend:

“If you are interested in aligning our terminology can you also state your answers in the way you understand vocabulary? So it's doesn't feel like I am filling a questionnaire.”

[Tal_175]

Tal. To quote a dear friend:

”If you are interested in aligning our terminology can you also state your answers in the way you understand vocabulary? So it's doesn't feel like I am filling a questionnaire.”

Peter, to quote a dear friend:

I’m legitimately trying to bring the terminology into alignment here so that there can be a conversation.

[Mick-7]

That is not the process Gary Burton described. His process is a systematic, deliberate approach to train students towards acquiring an important element of the jazz language, playing the changes.

Never-the-less, if you consider this practice to be working on vocabulary, every serious approach to improvisation will qualify.

[pamosmusic]

For what it’s worth, you’re arguing about this with everyone and operating under the assumption that your understanding of these particular terms is widely understood. It doesn’t seem to be widely understood at all, and I thought i might try to figure out what you meant, but I guess that is what it is.

I like talking about stuff like this, and this has just been so close to interesting all morning that I thought I might give it a go, but it doesn’t seem to be in the cards.

[Tal_175]

Never-the-less, if you consider this practice to be working on vocabulary, every serious approach to improvisation will qualify.

Yes, every approach to improvisation I understand to be serious would qualify in my understanding as working on vocabulary.

[Tal_175]

For what it’s worth, you’re arguing about this with everyone and operating under the assumption that your understanding of these particular terms is widely understood. It doesn’t seem to be widely understood at all, and I thought i might try to figure out what you meant, but I guess that is what it is.

I like talking about stuff like this, and this has just been so close to interesting all morning that I thought I might give it a go, but it doesn’t seem to be in the cards.

You and Mick seem to be arguing about this, not everyone. Sorry but I am not gonna write an assay on bebop vocabulary. If you suspect your understanding of bebop vocabulary is different than mine, you can state where do you think we might differ specifically, but for some reason you want me to do all the work in sorting this out.

[bediles]

FWIW I personally like the distinction btw bebop line based vocab and other stuff... intervallic, motivic, blues based etc.

There's also plenty of recorded examples of the bebop line based vernacular, and you know that's different than melodic or intervallic playing for example. TLDR: bebop vocabulary is a thing.

I think the confusion is bc Tal's point is about bebop vocab as opposed to say anything anyone has ever played.

[Tal_175]

Then, as I said, your definition of vocabulary is too broad to be of practical use.

What is your definition of bebop vocabulary?

[pamosmusic]

FWIW I personally like the distinction btw bebop line based vocab and other stuff... intervallic, motivic, blues based etc.

There's also plenty of recorded examples of the bebop line based vernacular, and you know that's different than melodic or intervallic playing for example. TLDR: bebop vocabulary is a thing.

I think the confusion is bc Tal's point is about bebop vocab as opposed to say anything anyone has ever played.

See, me too.

That Sonny Rollins solo is a masterclass in that kind of distinction. Im having a difficult time ascertaining if that’s the distinction we’re talking about here

[Tal_175]

FWIW I personally like the distinction btw bebop line based vocab and other stuff... intervallic, motivic, blues based etc.

There's also plenty of recorded examples of the bebop line based vernacular, and you know that's different than melodic or intervallic playing for example. TLDR: bebop vocabulary is a thing.

I think the confusion is bc Tal's point is about bebop vocab as opposed to say anything anyone has ever played.

Yes that's what I mean by not everything a bebop player plays is vocabulary.

[Mick-7]

What is your definition of bebop vocabulary?

Well, it seems you've revised the term, it started out being "bebop/straight ahead style of improvisation" vocabulary and now it's just be-bop vocabulary.

Sure, If I wanted to play just like Bird, Dizzy, et. al., I'd probably dissect their solos. That's a different ambition though than being a competent straight-ahead jazz improvisor.

FWIW I personally like the distinction btw bebop line based vocab and other stuff... intervallic, motivic, blues based etc.

There's also plenty of recorded examples of the bebop line based vernacular, and you know that's different than melodic or intervallic playing for example. TLDR: bebop vocabulary is a thing.

I don't think the distinction is as clear as you suggest, great "be-bop" solos may include all of the above: blues riffs, motivic development, melodic variations, etc., is there any practical value in defining what does or does not qualify as bop vocabulary?

[bediles]

Well, it seems you've revised the term, it started out being "bebop/straight ahead style of improvisation" vocabulary and now it's just be-bop vocabulary.

Sure, If I wanted to play just like Bird, Dizzy, et. al., I'd probably dissect their solos. That's a different ambition though than being a competent straight-ahead jazz improvisor.

Now we're splitting hairs ... again?

[Tal_175]

Well, it seems you've revised the term, it started out being "bebop/straight ahead style of improvisation" vocabulary and now it's just be-bop vocabulary.

Sure, If I wanted to play just like Bird, Dizzy, et. al., I'd probably dissect their solos. That's a different ambition though than being a competent straight-ahead jazz improvisor.

OK sure, bebop is a sub-style of straight ahead. I think of straight ahead as being in the lineage of bebop and closely related to it with a lot of shared language compared to the styles like fusion or post-bop. In any case, you don't think the notion of vocabulary applies to straight-ahead jazz?

[pamosmusic]

Okay so can we summarize this by saying that every player will have lines that are representative of or idiomatic to a broader style and lines that are less so.

In this specific case, Tal is talking about bebop.

So when Tal uses the term “vocabulary” he is referring to what others might term “idiomatic bebop language?”

That makes perfect sense, but maybe isn’t the standard use of the term vocabulary, which I think is usually applied more broadly.

But it’s a very useful distinction and one I make a lot when I’m thinking about solos, even if I’m using other terms for it.

[bediles]

Okay so can we summarize this by saying that every player will have lines that are representative of or idiomatic to a broader style and lines that are less so.

In this specific case, Tal is talking about bebop.

So when Tal uses the term “vocabulary” he is referring to what others might term “idiomatic bebop language?”

That makes perfect sense, but maybe isn’t the standard use of the term vocabulary, which I think is usually applied more broadly.

But it’s a very useful distinction and one I make a lot when I’m thinking about solos, even if I’m using other terms for it.

If only we all had Open Studio memberships, this misunderstanding wouldn't have happened in the first place!

[pamosmusic]

So this whole thing is coming back to that a person probably can’t learn idiomatic bebop language without isolating bebop phrases and working consciously to incorporate them?

[pamosmusic]

If only we all had Open Studio memberships, this misunderstanding wouldn't have happened in the first place!

But how much do they cost?

If only there were someone who could let me know.

[Mick-7]

So this whole thing is coming back to that a person probably can’t learn idiomatic bebop language without isolating bebop phrases and working consciously to incorporate them?

I guess it's good that you finally pinned down the poor butterfly but sad and pathetic that we subjected it to such a slow painful death beforehand.

Frankly, there is no way I would have ever reached the conclusion you stated from the description below, especially the part about "higher concepts" which apparently included just about everything under the jazz sun, "Aside from specific phrases there are also certain concepts or higher level ideas that you'll find in the recordings of a player. These could be things like playing around chord shapes, using minor ideas over ii-V's etc."

Suppose one's goal is to competently play in the style of bebop/hard-bop/straight-ahead. Like all those records that we love.
Here are some of my observations:

- This style of jazz is played with phrases. A phrase isn't a two bar lick necessarily. They are often short.
- These phrases have a certain recurring relationship with the underlying harmony but there is still a lot of expressive freedom with them as they are like, well vocabulary.
- The phrases can be analyzed as things like 3-9 arpeggios, bebop scale etc. but it is unclear if a player necessarily needs to know this as long as they practice them in a way that they can hear the phrases in the context of harmony and the phrases come out right.
- Aside from specific phrases there are also certain concepts or higher level ideas that you'll find in the recordings of a player. These could be things like playing around chord shapes, using minor ideas over ii-V's etc. These I'd say also part of their vocabulary in a broader sense.
- Good players have a rich set of vocabulary that they are expressive with. A lot more than an average noodler in any style.
- If you study a player, you'll find that not everything they play is vocabulary, but quite a bit of it are. Their vocabulary also opens up their creativity as jumping off points to different ideas in the moment.

[Tal_175]

Okay so can we summarize this by saying that every player will have lines that are representative of or idiomatic to a broader style and lines that are less so.

In this specific case, Tal is talking about bebop.

So when Tal uses the term “vocabulary” he is referring to what others might term “idiomatic bebop language?”

That makes perfect sense, but maybe isn’t the standard use of the term vocabulary, which I think is usually applied more broadly.

But it’s a very useful distinction and one I make a lot when I’m thinking about solos, even if I’m using other terms for it.

OK, sorry for the confusion.
There are perhaps two groups of vocabulary. Vocabulary idiomatic to a style and a players phrasal vocabulary. What I mean by the second group is, a player may be particularly into the effect of large intervals. S/he may practice the intervals melodically frequently. When these types of phrases get into their playing, in the context of all the other idiomatic things going on in the music they play, these phrases stylistically blend in. Another example is, a player may consciously or unconsciously play 1235 patterns frequently. That pattern can arise in almost any style of music but in the context it is played, it may be connecting more idiomatic phrases. There is a shared vocabulary, individual vocabulary and in the moment ideas.

[Tal_175]

I guess it's good that you finally pinned down the poor butterfly but sad and pathetic that we subjected it to such a slow painful death beforehand.

Frankly, there is no way I would have ever have reached the conclusion you stated from the description below:

I would have never imagined that the term "phrases" would not be understood as bebop/straight ahead phrases and language in the post below. But it's good we cleared it up now.

Suppose one's goal is to competently play in the style of bebop/hard-bop/straight-ahead. Like all those records that we love.
Here are some of my observations:

- This style of jazz is played with phrases. A phrase isn't a two bar lick necessarily. They are often short.
- These phrases have a certain recurring relationship with the underlying harmony but there is still a lot of expressive freedom with them as they are like, well vocabulary.
- The phrases can be analyzed as things like 3-9 arpeggios, bebop scale etc. but it is unclear if a player necessarily needs to know this as long as they practice them in a way that they can hear the phrases in the context of harmony and the phrases come out right.
- Aside from specific phrases there are also certain concepts or higher level ideas that you'll find in the recordings of a player. These could be things like playing around chord shapes, using minor ideas over ii-V's etc. These I'd say also part of their vocabulary in a broader sense.
- Good players have a rich set of vocabulary that they are expressive with. A lot more than an average noodler in any style.
- If you study a player, you'll find that not everything they play is vocabulary, but quite a bit of it are. Their vocabulary also opens up their creativity as jumping off points to different ideas in the moment.

Are there any good faith disagreements with these observations?

[Mick-7]

I would have never imagined that the term "phrases" would not be understood as bebop/straight ahead phrases and language in the post below. But it's good we cleared it up now.

That part was reasonably clear, it was the "aside from" that started the commotion, "Aside from specific phrases there are also certain concepts or higher level ideas..."

[Tal_175]

So this whole thing is coming back to that a person probably can’t learn idiomatic bebop language without isolating bebop phrases and working consciously to incorporate them?

I consider bebop also a teaching/learning tool for straight-ahead. That's why I tend to lump them together. But maybe your approach is different when it comes to straight ahead.

[pamosmusic]

I consider bebop also a teaching/learning tool for straight-ahead. That's why I tend to lump them together. But maybe your approach is different when it comes to straight ahead.

Not really.

back to the language thing … there are lots of ways to make good music but bebop is “kings English”

[Bobby Timmons]

But how much do they cost?

If only there were someone who could let me know.

I tried to tell you but you ain't want.