POLL - Time it takes to learn pro level jazz improv?

[pamosmusic]

In terms of the original post, I'd like to address the premise. The implication is that if one starts early enough, and puts enough time in, that they will learn pro-level playing. I have to think that this is delusional.

Music is a hobby for me, and as a result, I'm sure my bar is lower than some of you. But I also see other people on this forum who are fooling themselves to think they'll ever play at a pro level. I'll never play at that level, either—the difference is, I'm not kidding myself. I used to admire the music school people, until I realized the vast majority of music school grads won't ever make a living in music. That said, I respect the heck out of the working jazz pros on this forum who legit make a living doing it.

Can you be a rock star with middling talent? Absolutely. But as we know, advanced forms of music are different (I mean no disrespect to other styles of music; but the demands of jazz and classical exceed most other western genres).

Define: pro level playing

[Lionelsax]

In terms of the original post, I'd like to address the premise. The implication is that if one starts early enough, and puts enough time in, that they will learn pro-level playing. I have to think that this is delusional.

Music is a hobby for me, and as a result, I'm sure my bar is lower than some of you. But I also see other people on this forum who are fooling themselves to think they'll ever play at a pro level. I'll never play at that level, either—the difference is, I'm not kidding myself. I used to admire the music school people, until I realized the vast majority of music school grads won't ever make a living in music. That said, I respect the heck out of the working jazz pros on this forum who legit make a living doing it.

Can you be a rock star with middling talent? Absolutely. But as we know, advanced forms of music are different (I mean no disrespect to other styles of music; but the demands of jazz and classical exceed most other western genres).

I play sometimes with a drummer who is a postman, he played gigs with a very famous bassist.
Why ? Opportunities, he was there.
Is he a pro ? No, not at all !
He could be a pro but he prefers having a job.

I don't say that being a musician is not a job, unless you teach or play things you don't want to play, struggling will be your main activity.

I knew a saxophonist who was very good, sure he was a pro, he was playing the bassoon in a symphonic orchestra.

His father was a music teacher, he chose the instrument for his son : "the bassoon is annoying but you will have a musical career !"

There is also another musician, I could play with him, sure I could, anyone could.
What's the problem ? 600 euros are needed, if he doesn't get his 600 euros he won't play.
Yes, he is a pro and he is bloody right !

I won't give names.

[Cunamara]

Also some people start in their 20s or even 30s and in a few years end up being better than most people who started as kids. Life isn't fair.

And some don't. I started at 20; 45 years later I still suck.

[AllanAllen]

And some don't. I started at 20; 45 years later I still suck.

What are you working on?

[Cunamara]

Jazz, mostly.

"l suck" is a personal appraisal of my playing, others are more positive. There are aspects of playing jazz that I do pretty well and aspects that I think I don't. What I am working on is the creative imagination of a line to play; there was a video that someone linked to Barney Kessel doing an instructional video. He commented that practicing and learning chords and scales and theory was to enable you to play what you hear. His cautionary note was that "what you hear has to be good." That's the problem I have; the line I hear to play does not sound good to me when actually played. Occasionally, though, I do hear something decent for a few phrases and in the last year I am hearing improvement, which is encouraging.

[pamosmusic]

What are you working on?

Usually the right question to ask.

[Strat-itis]

Jazz, mostly.

"l suck" is a personal appraisal of my playing, others are more positive. There are aspects of playing jazz that I do pretty well and aspects that I think I don't. What I am working on is the creative imagination of a line to play; there was a video that someone linked to Barney Kessel doing an instructional video. He commented that practicing and learning chords and scales and theory was to enable you to play what you hear. His cautionary note was that "what you hear has to be good." That's the problem I have; the line I hear to play does not sound good to me when actually played. Occasionally, though, I do hear something decent for a few phrases and in the last year I am hearing improvement, which is encouraging.

If you're not hearing up good lines and then realizing them, you must learn to formulate them. Chris does this in BH class. Everything isn't ear, especially if it sux. Then you have to go in and formulate stuff to learn how to hear better.

[Cunamara]

It's a funny thing. Comping comes easy to me. I can hear the harmony of the song and what the vocalist or soloist is doing, and connecting those things is something that seems clear to me. I hear in my mind what I want to play with the head or the solo.

Soloing is a different story; it seems like what I have to say musically is in response to what others say, but I don't have much to say when I'm the leading voice in the conversation. I'd be content comping for the rest of my days, but jazz has this fixation on the solos- and, to be frank, IMHO there are a lot of solos in jazz (often by famous musicians on well-known records) that had nothing to actually say. At least nothing that I heard, someone else might have a completely different experience. And then there are some that say so, so much. From my perspective, if I have nothing to say it's better to say nothing.

Sometimes I try to do an Ed Bickert kind of solo involving both harmony and lines, usually to have a horn player say "why didn't you solo?" Because of course their notion of playing a solo is one note at a time; pianists tend to respond better to that approach. But if you've got a pianist in the band, you don't need me.

[GuyBoden]

And some don't. I started at 20; 45 years later I still suck.

Understandably, I don't like my own playing too.

But, I'm very dubious about anyone who likes their own playing.

My personal viewpoint is: if you don't like your own playing, you are more likely to practice more and improve your playing.

[Lionelsax]

Understandably, I don't like my own playing too.

But, I'm very dubious about anyone who likes their own playing.

My personal viewpoint is: if you don't like your own playing, you are more likely to practice more and improve your playing.

They love their own playing by putting other players down who play the same or better.
It's a common sport we all practice.

[AllanAllen]

Jazz, mostly.

"l suck" is a personal appraisal of my playing, others are more positive. There are aspects of playing jazz that I do pretty well and aspects that I think I don't. What I am working on is the creative imagination of a line to play; there was a video that someone linked to Barney Kessel doing an instructional video. He commented that practicing and learning chords and scales and theory was to enable you to play what you hear. His cautionary note was that "what you hear has to be good." That's the problem I have; the line I hear to play does not sound good to me when actually played. Occasionally, though, I do hear something decent for a few phrases and in the last year I am hearing improvement, which is encouraging.

have you learned any Parker heads yet? It sounds like you’ve bought into the marketing. It’s just music and it’s supposed to be fun.

”I’m working on jazz” tells me you are studying aimlessly. At best, noodling over jam tracks, at worst skipping from one YouTube video to the next half learning advanced concepts without knowing the basics.

If someone asked me what I’m working on I would say “Tricotism and adding space to my solos, with a little harmonic minor chord grip study”

[Cunamara]

Allen, do you have any idea how much you talk down to other people in the forum?

[AllanAllen]

Allen, do you have any idea how much you talk down to other people in the forum?

Not a clue. I’m sorry, I thought I was being helpful.

[pamosmusic]

Allen, do you have any idea how much you talk down to other people in the forum?

I get it, and I hear you …

But also, “some people suck and will always suck because life isn’t fair” is also extremely condescending.

Self deprecation is fine, but self deprecation in service of that message is kind of lame in its own way.

[Christian Miller]

Jazz, mostly.

"l suck" is a personal appraisal of my playing, others are more positive. There are aspects of playing jazz that I do pretty well and aspects that I think I don't. What I am working on is the creative imagination of a line to play; there was a video that someone linked to Barney Kessel doing an instructional video. He commented that practicing and learning chords and scales and theory was to enable you to play what you hear. His cautionary note was that "what you hear has to be good." That's the problem I have; the line I hear to play does not sound good to me when actually played. Occasionally, though, I do hear something decent for a few phrases and in the last year I am hearing improvement, which is encouraging.

I always listening closely to and repeating the phrases of another jazz musician always helps me with the 'everything I hear is rubbish' vibe. Honest theft is fine.

[GuyBoden]

I always listening closely to and repeating the phrases of another jazz musician always helps me with the 'everything I hear is rubbish' vibe. Honest theft is fine.

Allan Holdsworth was very self depreciating and he was one of the best. IMHO

Sent from my old iFone using Crapatalk