POLL - Time it takes to learn pro level jazz improv?

[Tal_175]

Just the right amount of decoding or explanation goes a long way for adult learners. As long as they don't get stuck in a rabbit hole.

As for different ways to skin the cat (maybe pet the cat, these days). Probably said this before, the best players I know were not too methodical and played lots of things they didn't understand but that sounded great. The most Jazz famous friend of mine transcribed maybe 100 choruses from different instrumentalists (A lift a day in may for a few years IIRC), I should ask her for confirmation, but to my knowledge that stuff just went in and there wasn't a whole lot of analysis (at least for all the solos).

Is this her:
How transcribing transformed my life | Finding Your Bliss

[Bobby Timmons]

Apropos of nothing, I think an interesting distinction between learning music and learning language is that grammar is important to both, but that in music the grammar a means of creating the vocabulary, and in language the grammar is largely separate from the vocabulary.

Like you could learn in pain staking detail how sentences are built but not know how to make one because you haven’t learned the French for “soup” and “tastes like feet” or whatever.

But I could spell out a simple series of rules that would create an actual bebop phrase you could use. It wouldn’t be the most interesting in the world, but it would work.

Im not sure quite how that changes things, but I think that speaks to the utility of grammar in music. But it’s also interesting because words have their own meaning and music doesn’t … so I could learn the words for “sir, this soup tastes like feet” and say them flatly and with poor accent and the server would get my meaning.

Alternatively, I could play a perfect bebop phrase flatly and with no articulation and it would be totally meaningless.

That's a great point. You can be fluent with less vocab in music if you know the grammar. While in language, you need a minimum vocab.

[bediles]

Is this her:
How transcribing transformed my life | Finding Your Bliss

Yep, recently on Live at Emmet's Place too. She's a talent and has really put in a lot of work not just on "the instrument" but arranging, writing, booking, building her brand. Super impressive.

[Mick-7]

Suppose one's goal is to competently play in the style of bebop/hard-bop/straight-ahead. Like all those records that we love.
Here are some of my observations:

- This style of jazz is played with phrases. A phrase isn't a two bar lick necessarily. They are often short.
- These phrases have a certain recurring relationship with the underlying harmony but there is still a lot of expressive freedom with them as they are like, well vocabulary.
- The phrases can be analyzed as things like 3-9 arpeggios, bebop scale etc. but it is unclear if a player necessarily needs to know this as long as they practice them in a way that they can hear the phrases in the context of harmony and the phrases come out right.
- Aside from specific phrases there are also certain concepts or higher level ideas that you'll find in the recordings of a player. These could be things like playing around chord shapes, using minor ideas over ii-V's etc. These I'd say also part of their vocabulary in a broader sense.
- Good players have a rich set of vocabulary that they are expressive with. A lot more than an average noodler in any style.
- If you study a player, you'll find that not everything they play is vocabulary, but quite a bit of it are. Their vocabulary also opens up their creativity as jumping off points to different ideas in the moment.

Are there any good faith disagreements with these observations?

Just that the definition of "vocabulary" you've outlined is so broad that it's practically useless because it encompasses every approach to learning jazz improvisation. Vocabulary is intrinsic to language (including the language of jazz), you can't learn a language without learning it's vocabulary.

[Tal_175]

Just that the definition of "vocabulary" you've outlined is so broad that it's practically useless because it encompasses every approach to learning jazz improvisation. Vocabulary is intrinsic to language (including the language of jazz), you can't learn a language without learning it's vocabulary.

You are interpreting the term vocabulary more broadly that I am using it. Yes, it is possible to water down every concept to a generality until it's meaningless but I am trying to pull it the other way. I have already outlined types of activities that I don't believe constitute deliberate, systematic way of working on vocabulary in response to some of your posts.

[pamosmusic]

You are interpreting the term vocabulary more broadly that I am using it. Yes, it is possible to water down every concept to a generality until it's meaningless but I am trying to pull it the other way. I have already outlined types of activities that I don't believe constitute deliberate, systematic way of working on vocabulary in response to some of your posts.

Could you recap those activities?

I'm recalling that one is memorizing solos without isolating individual phrases to incorporate. Another one is directionless improvising ... referred to generally as "noodling."

I guess some of the confusion in that respect is that a few people (myself included) have disagreed with the former, and the latter doesn't seem like something anyone would really call practice. Though other folks (again, myself included) have mentioned that a lot of people seem to get a lot out of sort of focused wandering. So I guess it's not clear where the line is for what you're talking about here.

As for defining "vocabulary" I'm not sure that's been super clear either. From some context in other posts, I think you'd probably map that onto what I distinguish as "motivic development" and "the bebop."

So this is the one I usually use as an example ... solo starts at 0:50, with what I would call motivic development and what you would think of as separate from vocabulary? At about 1:04, when he hits bar 9 of the form, he's into "the bebop" or what you would call "vocabulary" ... yes? Or I'm totally off base here?

[Mick-7]

You are interpreting the term vocabulary more broadly that I am using it. Yes, it is possible to water down every concept to a generality until it's meaningless but I am trying to pull it the other way. I have already outlined types of activities that I don't believe constitute deliberate, systematic way of working on vocabulary in response to some of your posts.

The only activity I heard you exclude was "noodling," which by definition is not a systematic approach to learning vocabulary.

[Tal_175]

Could you recap those activities?

I'm recalling that one is memorizing solos without isolating individual phrases to incorporate. Another one is directionless improvising ... referred to generally as "noodling."

I guess some of the confusion in that respect is that a few people (myself included) have disagreed with the former, and the latter doesn't seem like something anyone would really call practice. Though other folks (again, myself included) have mentioned that a lot of people seem to get a lot out of sort of focused wandering. So I guess it's not clear where the line is for what you're talking about here.

As for defining "vocabulary" I'm not sure that's been super clear either. From some context in other posts, I think you'd probably map that onto what I distinguish as "motivic development" and "the bebop."

So this is the one I usually use as an example ... solo starts at 0:50, with what I would call motivic development and what you would think of as separate from vocabulary? At about 1:04, when he hits bar 9 of the form, he's into "the bebop" or what you would call "vocabulary" ... yes? Or I'm totally off base here?

I have an idea. Why don't you describe what you believe jazz vocabulary means in relation to straight-ahead/bebop/hard-bop jazz? I have a feeling it's unlikely I'll find your description controversial. It's not a notion I just invented in the course of this thread.

[joe2758]

About 10 years ago I joined Jimmy Brunos online thing, and he basically taught noodling in major scale patterns. I wager that's because it's easy to teach.

[Tal_175]

About 10 years ago I joined Jimmy Brunos online thing, and he basically taught noodling in major scale patterns. I wager that's because it's easy to teach.

I actually think noodling can be a systematic way of working on vocabulary. But I don't think every type of noodling would work. Gary Burton said in one of his improvisation videos that students should practice noodling (making up lines) over each chord type until they get good at that chord on their instruments. Then work on connecting chords together with their "newly acquired" facility with each chord. That's a very systematic approach.

[joe2758]

Doesn't vocabulary have to come from an outside source though? Noodling can only be part of it, right?

[Tal_175]

I mean it's systematic because it's far more structured than putting a backing track of the tune you're working on and noodle along with a scale or two over the changes for example.

[Mick-7]

I actually think noodling can be a systematic way of working on vocabulary. But I don't think every type of noodling would work. Gary Burton said in one of his improvisation videos that students should practice noodling (making up lines) over each chord type until they get good at that chord on their instruments. Then work on connecting chords together with their "newly acquired" facility with each chord. That's a very systematic approach.

Great, now even noodling is not excluded from working on vocabulary! What does that leave?

Is this Keith Jarrett strategy for motivic development "working on vocabulary"? (Peter just alluded to it.) Improvising on the melody of a tune is another approach to this.

Playing the changes vs. playing over the key center

[joe2758]

putting a backing track of the tune you're working on and noodle along with a scale or two over the changes for example.

this was the Jimmy Bruno thing. I remember thinking at the time "this road will get me nowhere"

[Tal_175]

Doesn't vocabulary have to come from an outside source though? Noodling can only be part of it, right?

I think in this case he wasn't teaching improvisation within a particular style of jazz. I don't think you can, say, teach bebop or gypsy jazz that way. The goal was more learning to play the changes of the form.

[Tal_175]

Great, now even noodling is not excluded from working on vocabulary! What does that leave?

I don't think you read my post about noodling right.

[Mick-7]

I don't think you read my post about noodling right.

You said, "Gary Burton said in one of his improvisation videos that students should practice noodling (making up lines) over each chord type until they get good at that chord on their instruments. Then work on connecting chords together with their "newly acquired" facility with each chord. That's a very systematic approach."

If this too is a systematic approach to developing vocabulary than I have a hard time seeing what is not.

[Tal_175]

You said, "Gary Burton said in one of his improvisation videos that students should practice noodling (making up lines) over each chord type until they get good at that chord on their instruments. Then work on connecting chords together with their "newly acquired" facility with each chord. That's a very systematic approach."

If this too is a systematic approach to developing vocabulary than I have a hard time seeing what is not.

I also said:

I mean it's systematic because it's far more structured than putting a backing track of the tune you're working on and noodle along with a scale or two over the changes for example.

[pamosmusic]

I have an idea. Why don't you describe what you believe jazz vocabulary means in relation to straight-ahead/bebop/hard-bop jazz? I have a feeling it's unlikely I'll find your description controversial. It's not a notion I just invented in the course of this thread.

Things gleaned from an outside source to be used for one’s own purposes.

So was I right about what you’re thinking of as vocabulary? Based on the Sonny Rollins solo? I’m legitimately trying to bring the terminology into alignment here so that there can be a conversation. Not sure why that warranted a snarky response.

For what it’s worth, Im basing my inference off this, from the oft cited Post Number One Seventy Five:

- If you study a player, you'll find that not everything they play is vocabulary, but quite a bit of it are. Their vocabulary also opens up their creativity as jumping off points to different ideas in the moment.

[Mick-7]

"Gary Burton said in one of his improvisation videos that students should practice noodling (making up lines) over each chord type until they get good at that chord on their instruments. Then work on connecting chords together with their "newly acquired" facility with each chord. That's a very systematic approach."

I also said: I mean it's systematic because it's far more structured than putting a backing track of the tune you're working on and noodle along with a scale or two over the changes for example.

Not necessarily, the lines one makes up are most likely based on scales - since chords are derived from scales.

[Tal_175]

Things gleaned from an outside source to be used for one’s own purposes.

So was I right about what you’re thinking of as vocabulary? Based on the Sonny Rollins solo? I’m legitimately trying to bring the terminology into alignment here so that there can be a conversation. Not sure why that warranted a snarky response.

I really wasn't trying to be snarky. Yes, the line he plays after the motivic riff sounds like bebop vocabulary. As I said, I don't have a reason to believe that most of us here don't share a relatively common understanding of the meaning of vocabulary in this context.

[pamosmusic]

I really wasn't trying to be snarky. Yes, the line he plays after the motivic riff sounds like bebop vocabulary. As I said, I don't have a reason to believe that most of us here don't share a relatively common understanding of the meaning of vocabulary in this context.

And you also said that “not everything they play is vocabulary.”

So like, the initial rhythmic idea in the solo? That would not be vocabulary?

[Tal_175]

Not necessarily, the lines one makes up are most likely based on scales (since chords are derived from scales), and the lines one finds while improvising/noodling are often better than those that are the product of an intellectual process.

That is not the process Gary Burton described. His process is a systematic, deliberate approach to train students towards acquiring an important element of the jazz language, playing the changes.

[Tal_175]

And you also said that “not everything they play is vocabulary.”

So like, the initial rhythmic idea in the solo? That would not be vocabulary?

If you are interested in aligning our terminology can you also state your answers in the way you understand vocabulary? So it's doesn't feel like I am filling a questionnaire.

[pamosmusic]

If you are interested in aligning our terminology can you also state these answers in the way you understand vocabulary? So it's doesn't feel like filling a questionnaire.

I did already Tal. You replied and quoted it already:

Things gleaned from an outside source to be used for one’s own purposes.

But I can’t align terminology if you won’t actually say what you mean. Which is why I’m asking the question.

The difference is that what I’m saying, and what I believe Joe is saying, and what I THINK most people would say is that vocabulary is content neutral and process oriented … meaning that vocabulary is what I can steal and use, no matter what it is.

You seem to be saying that vocabulary is not content neutral, that it is a particular thing. Meaning listening to a solo, one phrase might be vocabulary, and one phrase might not be. Insofar as I think that’s true, it would be completely dependent upon the listener.

So would you outline what you mean by this or relate it to the audio example I gave with time stamps or something?