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I'll second this. Be aware that you can know and practice scales until you're a bonafide scale expert - and still not be able to play a single note of actual music.
Originally Posted by whiskey02
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04-03-2016 10:53 AM
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Yea, it is better than GD I've heard, def. more tastier stuff, but still...to me the guy just didn't have chops, even compare to his rock contemporaries, let alone jazz. If you are improvising musician, you need chops to create interest in your solos... But I years ago I caught some stuff of him on the radio, where it was countrish bluegrassy music (I think with Grisman?), and it was not too bad. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Check out the album "Terrapin Station". There's a section in there called "Terrapin Flyer" that should put to rest any idea that Garcia didn't have chops. Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
(BTW, I've been on other jazz forums where they've said the same thing about Scofield.)
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Yes. And you can achieve the sabe non-musical result by NOT practicing scales as well. Originally Posted by va3ux
The same could be said for arpeggios... licks and solos of the greats.... countless etudes implementing various jazz patterns and devices.... chord scales and all types of harmonic work.....
But many of these things ARE practiced by a lot of great players.
PRACTICE and PLAYING are two different things. NOT practicing scales is no solution to the problem of ineffective practice.
Too much of an emphasis on scales MAY be a problem, but ONLY guitarists talk about the mere act of playing fewer of them being the SOLUTION.
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speaking of scales, how do you guys practice them? I always thought you supposed to play them up and down the neck in a discipline way? Something that I could only do for like 5 min, and then I'd get bored. After that I'd go into improvising mode and just play phrases, even if I hit a few outside notes... Is it a viable option, or am I just being lazy?
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For YEARS ( and I d mean many years) my routine was to play the 7 scale patterns, Major, harm min, Mel minor, all 12 keys. I'd rotate through circle of 5th. I'd do three keys of each per day. THEN I'd go through my list of scale exercises, another three keys each. The next day I'd take up from where I left off and rotate. I also did diminished, whole tone, augmented, pentatonic. Straight and exercise list. Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
This was quite separate from my arpeggio studies. But they were conjoined.
I never confused practicing scales with playing them.
I don't think I'll ever have to practice scales again. I still do some technical studies but not scales. I play tunes. I always played tunes but for a long time I spent less time on those than the technical stuff. I don't regret the time I spent. I HAD to.
EDIT: My routine everyday was something like:
7 Major Scale Patterns:Keys C, F, Bb
7 Melodic Minor scale patterns: Keys Eb, Ab, Db
7 Harmonic Minor scale patterns: Keys Gb, B, E
Diminished: key A,
Whole Tone: D,
Pentatonic: G
The next day the same thing starting in the key of F and rotating.
Then I'd apply my 65 odd exercises to all in the same way: three keys. It goes pretty quick just playing them up the neck. The exercises are more time consuming because they're hard.
I had a similar routine for my arpeggios, but they have different exercises and function within the framework of the scale patterns.
But I also spent almost as much time, sometimes more, improvising WITH all of the above. A lot of students miss this point. I forget that I have to tell them to do that. They'll just play the scales and wonder why they sound like they're playing scales. The most important thing is application. Application. Application.Last edited by henryrobinett; 04-03-2016 at 02:40 PM.
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I've recently got into practicing them as randomly as I can (what Julian Lage describes as the Gary Burton way.) Inevitably phrases and patterns emerge.. It's just one way of working on scales.... Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
If you are interested in scales, I think it's important to practice turning scales into music once you have the basic fingerings under your hands. Music is a fine balance between pattern and variation. You can practice patterns and you can practice varying them. You can practice randomness. You can practice as many patterns as you can think of...
Anything you can do to make scales into phrases is far more important than what scales you use. Saying using scales is really meaningless unless you make phrases. To say that Mozart or Charlie Parker used major, minor and chromatic scales is the most basic and shallow analysis - it's a start but it doesn't tell you much beyond that. Same for saying an Middle Eastern musician uses the fifth mode of the Harmonic Minor in the performance of a piece (it's even worse, because it doesn't understand how this pitch collection is understood by the musician playing it.)Last edited by christianm77; 04-03-2016 at 02:27 PM.
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va3ux--- I know what you say is true because I am a testament to it...back when I was a younger player I memorized scales and recorded myself playing riffs and solos (rock and metal) and at first I thought it was good because it was fast but later, as I matured as a player I got to where I couldn't revisit my old hits because they just sounded...juvenile. And don't even think I'm talking punk: I love good punk and toss the rest, but consider this: Stevie Ray was never banned from performing because he only knew two scales---I realize jazz is a different animal than the blues and my favorites are what they are but whether you're talking rock, blues, jazz, whatever, the only thing that matters is that it sounds good to some people...that's true whether your talking about Miles Davis or George Benson, The White Stripes or Slayer, it just has to sound good to some, maybe even a lot of people. Thanks for listening---Jon
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Yeah. Once you've got a basic pattern down, it's time to move on to something else. Bert Ligon talks about NOT practicing things you can already play. Straight up-and-down constantly is death in my opinion. The more complex the patterns get, the more like real music they are anyway. Of course, I've always heard it said that whatever you play, whether scales or anything else, it should be musical and expressive.
For me, finding new patterns is stimulating. I've been doing some "backwards", lately. I could play ascending thirds up the scale and descending thirds on the way back down pretty well, because I had practiced them that way. But I couldn't do the opposite : descending thirds up the scale and ascending thirds down the scale. So, I've been practicing those two in combination, and I actually find them interesting. I do crap like this while watching television. Maybe that's a bad habit. I don't care.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 04-03-2016 at 03:18 PM.
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Idk. For me and the reason I played them so much was to make sure there was no corner unknown, not mastered and the fretboard. I needed to have it so internal I could play them while entirely unconscious, which has been my goal in playing jazz. To me jazz is about playing unconsciously. Not thinking. Every corner must be mastered.
In retrospect I should've moved on to more interesting things, but i think it worked. I was also in the habit of practicing first thing in the morning before I had time to think. I just did my 2-3 hour routine. Come back later and just play or write.Last edited by henryrobinett; 04-06-2016 at 01:36 AM.
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Warne Marsh said the same thing... Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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So I thought I might scale back to this forum and get some good ideas without the heat. I mean I can play the hell out of some rock and metal,relatively speaking: I'm not Eddie Van Halen or Randy Rhodes and probably never will be that good, but I am a progressive player and I think jazz is the right thing for me right now, even if I return to rock. Van Halen stepped out with Spanish Fly and Randy worked on mastering classical so I don't think it is a big deal for a metal head rocker to learn his way around a II-V-I. In fact you can find the same scales in bebop as you do death metal: Super Locrian (Alt), Locrian, with natural 7th, or double flat 7, Half Whole and Whole Half Diminished and that's just the really heavy ones: that is they're heavy until you clean up the tone and play them like it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing...I saw a video with a metal guy who said if you want to play fast hold your pick lightly and press down light on the notes. First I use special grip picks and they still fall out of my hands second I can do it but I don't want to 'tickle the 6 strings.' I come from the Albert King and Stevie Ray Vaughan style of fiddling where you man handle those notes and pick hard even when playing fast. My main guitar is a big white electromatic Gretsch and if you know anything about Gretschs you know they are very versatile which suits me fine because I change my mind a lot. How do you hold your pick? Paul Gilbert is a fast picker and he says hold the pick at about forty five degrees which works, but a lot of times I would rather dead ahead plow through those notes: Not typical in jazz but Django Reinhardt wasnt typical either. Black Sabbath front man Tony Iommi had damaged finger tips but that didn't stop him from writing the heaviest riffs ever. My fave jazz used to be
Al DiMeola and John McLaughlin but now I like Parker, Coltrane, Monk and last but not least Davis. So What?
Do you dig?
d
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I'm a little confused: People have been giving you all kinds of ideas, but you sound like nobody's said anything. Is it just that you're not getting the answer you want to hear?
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04-06-2016, 06:38 AM #114destinytot GuestThere are certain novels I've re-read at different times in my life, and I've got different things out of them - not 'quantity' but 'depth'. I see repertoire the same way; analysis seems synonymous with recognition of familiar sounds. Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
And like reading a text, you can scan, skim or study tunes.
For me, scales belong in 'scan' (and perhaps in 'skim'), but not really in 'study' - because I assume the purpose of the latter to be concerned with coherent expression of the whole rather than cohesive value of its constituent parts.
I'm saying 'practise what you understand' - in order to achieve dexterity (so you can physically apply it to the act of playing music) but 'keep it on a need-to-know basis'.
I'm also saying 'decide what's relevant - now. But don't throw any scales away completely, as you may well find that you need them later.'
Dos centavos etc
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edh, most if not all people want reassurance at some point in their lives---I'm an experienced guitar player but jazz is new to me. What kind of fool would I be to assume I know everything about it without asking? I have books and books of jazz but still I know something is missing...the sooner I find it the better. Someone said that by looking for "the secret" I was looking for a short cut---if I wanted a short cut I would make up my own and wouldn't be asking!
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Fair enough. I think most of us would agree that listening to a lot of jazz and learning tunes would be excellent first steps. Also, try to play with other people as much as possible. It really helps. Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
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I suppose we feel like we are repeating ourselves a bit. Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
There's not very much reassurance to be had with jazz TBH. I've been playing jazz for 20 years and I still feel like I am scaling a sheer cliff face. There is only ... the climb.
On the other hand if you love the music and enjoy the sheer challenge, it's great.
This game is not for those who get discouraged easily. You have to be obsessive.
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In this response I will ignore who and what doesn't matter---
mr.beaumont: As far as tunes go I pick one, say Autumn Leaves or a Coltrane tune, and play along on the backing track, changes first then my own improvisation. I play music with my Uncle who knows a lot of tunes and progressions but not a lot of jazz. That's no problem though as I get to solo over changes in real time as well as add melody and play my own rhythms. christianm77: according to you jazz is right for me: I'm beginning to love the music and I'm more obsessive and compulsory than anybody I know. Good day---
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Autumn Leaves is a great starting place, becasue it's basically diatonic (although the interesting notes are not)
A Real Book would be a good investment for you.
All of Me, Autumn Leaves, Blue Bossa, All the Things You Are, April in Paris, Blue Monk, Billie's Bounce, Blue Moon, Bye Bye Blackbird...you could spend a year just in A and B and find a bunch of great tunes.
My suggestion would be to listen, listen, listen. Learn the melody by ear. Steal lines. Use the notes in the chords as a basis for improvisation...start out tryng to make every change...don't look for a catch all scale or "key" to noodle in...that will not sound jazzy. You'll be able to do that eventually, but that's high level...start small. Start with the melody, and embellish...think like a singer who's making a tune "their own." That's how you start. And put all ideas of being original aside for a while. Originality is what emerges when you synthesize influence and make it your own.
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Just curious, but why do you think jazz is the right thing for you right now? Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
Eddie and Randy are/were certainly great players. It's no secret Eddie loves Clapton, and spent hours learning his solos note for note. And Randy was seriously studying classical guitar when he died. But they did it because they truly loved the music, not because they thought it was cool or hip or that they were supposed to. Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
Do you mean, you don't think it's strange that a Rock/Metal player learns jazz? I agree. However, learning jazz takes a tremendous amount of work and discipline. Jazz is more than just getting around a II-V-I. I can't imaging doing it without completely loving it. Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
Last edited by Dana; 04-06-2016 at 10:43 AM.
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mr.beaumont: I've got a Chord Melody book on order that should be here soon, along with a Charlie Parker for guitar, but the Real Book you mention sounds like it would be gold. I understand what you mean by think like a singer: I had a guitar teacher who used to, uh, meow notes like a cat before he played them on guitar. Hey, worked for him! Based on the responses I've gotten on this forum, I'd have to say there are nearly as many approaches and ways to play as there are players. While I don't believe there is one right way I do believe I have to find my way, therefore I ask. When I'm not on this forum there is a good chance I'm playing. Thanks for the help!
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The Real Book is the one that almost everybody uses, so it's kind of essential equipment for a jazz musician. Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
Another thing: Are there jam sessions in your area? I know you say you've got people to play with but they don't play jazz. Improvising over rock or blues tunes is great, but you need to be playing with other jazz guys. Rock players are not going to be giving you altered chords or substitutions to play over, and you'll be needing practice with that, as well as simply playing over older-style chord progressions. As Mr. Beaumont pointed out, you can't just grab one scale and use it like you do in rock. You've got to be able to change your melodic orientation as the harmony changes.
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Dana, the more I listen to jazz and play it the more I love it. Besides that, I believe it is the natural progression for me...I played rock and metal and fusion in my other life (before my accident) now 12 years later I'm interested in the guitar again and I f-e-e-l and k-n-o-w jazz is my genre and I have to find my way to do it. Have a good day Dana...
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Sure, the gentle cats like Wes and Trane are great examples to us all, in many of life's aspects. But don't forget that people like Mingus and Miles affected a lot of people's lives and music as well. They were more about "tough love". As for how that relates to this thread, in my experience, Rock people can respond to tough love, they come from a tough world.
Different strokes...
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Not saying I don't respect them or love their music. Just might not want to hang out with them is all. Originally Posted by princeplanet
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