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From what I have read, it is a mistake to try and "pretty up" a guy like Miles, whose abuse of his lovely wife Frances was well documented and apparently he even wrote a bit about it in his autobiography which I looked for at the library yesterday without success. Drugs like cocaine and smack are not "pretty" either.
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04-06-2016 01:00 PM
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Generally, he's well regarded by his former sidemen, and many credit him with being a great teacher. This doesn't excuse any of the bad stuff he did, but like most people he was complex, and had different effects on different people.
Originally Posted by targuit
I decided I probably wouldn't have liked him after reading his autobiography. Angry people make me uncomfortable.
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Originally Posted by targuit
Oh, I'm no Miles apologist, but he was effective in getting the best out of people. You just have to see any documentary about him to see dozens of the world's best ever Jazz musicians saying that Miles knew how do bring the best out in them, as an individual musician, as well as a group player. But hey, I also get that there are too many Jazz teachers out there that use "tough love" as an excuse to be a bully...
Do the ends always justify the means? For me it depends on the lens you look at it through, microscopically, if you look at the immediate surrounding environment, if people's feelings get hurt then the answer could be "No, no ends justifies peoples feeling being hurt". But if viewed through the long telescope, across time and space and into posterity beyond our own short lives, then art is the "end" that justifies any temporary anguish.
People have died for political or spiritual or "righteous" causes throughout history so that a legacy may out live them and serve humanity better in the future. I see art in much the same way. If no art was made for fear of hurting peoples feelings, then we'd have no Bird, Miles, Mingus, Art Blakey etc etc. Art that lives forever is more important than feelings that are hurt for a few days. But feelings that are hurt forever in an attempt to make art that will never be appreciated, well now, that's a whole 'nother conundrum. What if your next door neighbour verbally abused his wife because she gave him a hard time spending all their money on paint for his experimental canvasses, that no-one bought or even liked. Unjustified torment? But what if his work suddenly got discovered and he became famous and important for centuries to come. For someone enjoying his work in 2216, will they care that much that the painter verbally abused his non believer wife?
Like I say, there are no real answers, just different perspectives. The nature and definition as well as purpose of Art is one of my favourite topics for discussion, and Jazz is my favourite of all art forms. What about you guys?
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Except that he is rumored to stop in the middle of a dinner conversation and go practice some lines he just heard in his mind :-) Other funny/interesting stories abound about how laser-focused he was on music. Originally Posted by Boston Joe
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I'm listening to Coltrane's A Love Supreme for the second time tonight: I've heard of it but never actually listened to the song until now and it is a delight. I'm going to try and play it without the backing tracks first, then with them and possibly the whole album after that. Nobody turned me on to jazz I just kind of observed my surroundings when I was at school the 13 years later I catch the bug after jumping off the fusion pad. Whoever says bebop is all that is right: I'm a newbee so don't shoot me and I'm not telling anybody how to play, but I notice a remarkable difference between the way rock players for instance play 'scalar' runs and jazz players play intricate workings around tonics that can easily shift. You have to study jazz to see how rock and blues stick mainly to the "fundamentals" (pents- power chords-triads-diatonics) while a genre (sub-genre?) like bebop features players pushing the musical envelope in a new way to another level. I've been working on Autumn Leaves and Misty, songs that are not hard to understand but unless you know your chords in every position (I don't) you are limited in your exploration of the tune. I had the idea (maybe I heard it) to learn all root 4 position chords to play Misty. I haven't played the song a lot but 5 and 6 root chords sound dissonant and ugly and ruin the chord melody in that tune for me. Well I'm going back to the wood shed for awhile but how exactly do most good jazz players visualize the fret board? I know it varies but any examples would be appreciated--take care...
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I think I'd be OK with that. I seem to remember one about him washing his dishes with his horn hanging around his neck. Originally Posted by medblues
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I can only speak for myself, but when I'm tackling a new tune I tend to see it (at least to begin with) in terms of the chord forms laying out on the fingerboard. When I started learning jazz, once I knew the basic arpeggios and the standard jazz chord shapes, I found I could see them like roadmaps on the fingerboard. Even Joe Pass said that he played out of the chord shapes a lot of the time, and I learned all my basic jazz chords from the Joe Pass chord book, so hopefully I'm in good company(!). Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
Taking Autumn Leaves in the key of G minor as an example, the first 3 chords are C minor, F7, Bb major. So when I first learned this tune I would see a kind of 'box' built around Cm7 at the 8th fret, F9 at the 8th fret, and Bmaj7 at the 6th fret. So I would start soloing in this area of the fingerboard, using lines built on the chord tones of those 3 chords in succession.
Or I might see another 'box' based around Cm9 at the first fret, F13 at the first fret, and Bmaj7 at the first fret, and start there.
Nowadays I can start soloing on this tune more or less anywhere on the fingerboard, and rove around it at will, but that comes with more experience of the specific tune, and playing generally.
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I definitely agree with grahambop, I visualize things in chord shapes, almost always.
Love Supreme is a lofty goal. It will serve you much better to start simple.
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I appreciate all the advice guys: I take it seriously and I take it to heart. I'm going to start with the lessons on the site today and I'm not trying to master A Love Supreme yet, I just want to see how I do peeling licks off it where I can. I don't know about anyone else, but for me when it comes to learning by ear the melody finds my fingers first, then the improvisation and finally the harmony. I'm sure for some of you it is backwards of that, but so it goes...
The L.S. and Earl Grey scale sound vital, but strangely enough I've never run across them in a scale book. Are they deep esoteric jazz secrets? Do I need to learn the special handshake? ha ha! Just kidding, but I do see the benefit of visualizing the chord shapes: after all they are what you are soloing over. My first and best love is writing music but I know I must learn the changes before I forget them. Like I tried to make plain to princeplanet I am not just some rock guy trying to steal licks and master jazz in a year: if it takes 10, if it takes 20 I will take it a step at a time and enjoy the process. Good day to ya'll---
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Yes and No.
You gotta know your scales...but you can go overboard...and, truthfully, jazz playing doesn't sound like scales really, especially the old stuff. Players often viewed things in arpeggios--chord tone map, not sweeping bullshit. They played chord tones, embellished, approached chromatically, used enclosures...that's what jazz, well, up until the late 50's or so--sounds like.
But yeah, Major and modes, Melodic Minor and modes, pentatonics, to a lesser extent harmonic minor, diminished, wholetone...those are important. The harmony is just as important as the notes and playing them in sequence sometimes...
The exotic stuff with names like "Eritrean Half-Minor" aren't so important, unless you're impressing someone at Guitar Center.
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Incidentally transcribing this solo will teach you all you need to know about using scales in jazz: Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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joe2758-- I totally agree with you about absolutes: I'm brand new to jazz and looking for good information, substantial advice, tips, tricks, whatever I can get. In case you don't already know them, I'll share with you my secrets to life: the Hindu, Hungarian minor, Persian, Pelog, Hirojoshi, Kumoi and all of those Beboping Scales--I recognize that you're much more experienced than me but if you want to hear some real truth just get yourself a pattern of any of the scales I just named and commence! Have a good time my friend!
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I know a few people in the UK who have the Holdsworth thing together. It's pretty specialised.
IMO Allan isn't very good at straight jazz or playing much apart from his own music. You only have so many hours to devote to music. You end up picking your battles one way or another.
Jazz is a wiiiiide field now - you can know hardly any standards, not swing on any level, and play your own compositions that sound like King Crimson and be considered a jazz guitarist.
Or you can be an old school guy with an Archtop who knows hundreds of standards but has no interest in moving jazz beyond 1958.
And there are lots of people in the middle. Most pro players have learned a bit of the tradition when they go to Jazz school.
To me Allan isn't really a jazz guitarist, but in another very real sense (from the perspective of rock guys, say) he is! And of course Allan learned by listening to jazz guys. So who's right? Who cares.
My advice is based around the tradition. I will advise people to learn standards and bebop and so on, but it's not the only game in town. Allan is a monster, of course.Last edited by christianm77; 04-07-2016 at 10:26 AM.
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I impress people at Guitar Center with what I Don't Know? I aggravate my tech all the time, and not with stupid s--- either, legitimate questions that prove pure ignorance! I'm not that bad, but I do call a lot to be honest. mr.beaumont: I have weighed your advice on my scales of justice and I should have more than sufficient scale knowledge one week from now. "Whoa! What are you saying?" I already know much of what you're suggesting and I am only talking about sufficient scale knowledge to get started with: I know I will learn much more on my journey. I do know this: as a musician and guitarist I would rather be a master of one than a jack of all trades though I know if you can play jazz other styles are at your fingertips, or at least that makes sense to me.
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I agree.
Chords are going to be your best friend for a while now.
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christianm77: I read you loud and clear and you could have taken the words right outta my mouth as I've thought the same thing about specialization and the hours in the day before. I remember hearing about when they asked Stevie Ray why he picked the blues? He responded that it was what sounded good to him. Allan H. sounds good to me, but not necessarily better than Coltrane, Davis or Parker. My ultimate goal is to be a monster in my own right but I'm not going to call myself that and I imagine it will be years before anyone else will because I'm a student right now--not a monster, or a beast, or a demon, but my instincts tell me I will apply myself and I will get there.
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thanks mr.beaumont, will definitely put in the time with the chords and harmony.
Off to the woodshed-shed return shumtime shoom...
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It's my belief that even the most advanced players feel like students. Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
I can't imagine Allan for example, would disagree with that sentiment.
The moment you say 'I am a monster' is the moment you stop learning - that's for the true amateurs!
The greatest players realise that they will never stop learning and are amazed by other musicians. Most are extremely humble (a few become insecure and a bit arrogant, but the root is the same.)
There is no 'there' - the qualities of your playing are in the eye of the beholder. And there is always more to learn. And the better you get the more refined and sophisticated your ear becomes, and the more you can hear, both good and bad!
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There is a beautiful hidden message in this post. If you're looking for secrets, this one is almost cliche: Originally Posted by vintagelove
"It's All The Things You Are struggling with."
Is the 2-5-1 relevant to Holdsworth's music? This is a real question, not rhetorical. I have listened to Holdsworth (not recently), but just for the rush, not to try to cop him, just to feel it. So I don't know.
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Originally Posted by kenbennett
That's hilarious. If only I meant to do that...
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christianm77--I wasn't trying to imply that one day I would just raise my ax high and declare myself a monster, but I don't imagine that was your vision either. I've never known anyone who was egotistical and conceited that wasn't an ----- and I cannot see myself becoming proud of my playing or anything else. By proud I mean arrogant, not quietly confident. Staying a student let's you apply yourself and grow, which is what I always want to do. Just a few minutes ago I purchased The Real Book Volumes 1 and 2 and I took a look inside. I'll be working with the chord changes and my own improvisation until I can read the notes. My standard notation reading ability is very basic so I will learn a lot from that aspect of the volumes. I know it's early to be improvising but I'm going to start with the chord tones and extensions and see where it takes me...
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Roscoe - What jazz tunes are part of your repertoire and which ones would you like to learn?
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targuit: Thank you for asking. I actually don't know a lot of other people's stuff generally speaking because I usually work on my own, but three great tunes I've found are Autumn Leaves, Misty and A Love Supreme. I plan on learning them in that order and upon someone's (on the site) recommendation I purchased The Real Book Volumes 1 and 2. It should give me plenty of exercise because while I'll probably be familiar with the chords I only read music at a very basic level. I mentioned earlier today that I could try my hand at playing over the changes but since I'm just starting out focus more on the chord tones and extensions and less on any scales.
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Really, thats a big call. I woudnt want to bet my life on it. Dont forget Allan spent a lot of time in the early days playing with great pianists with a solid grounding in the tradition like Pat Symthe and Gordon Beck, and he played lots of "standards" gigs plus his time spent with free playing with Ian Carr's groups, as well as all the sideman projects he's been involved in i think he is actually quite versatile, although he has mostly been hired for his soloing ability. I believe the first album that he takes credit for as leader, IOU was an attempt to showcase his chordal playing as much as anything else. I also think he is more interested in Non Functional harmony than conventional 11-V- I. Interesting as i hear some of the supposed legit modern guys these days trying to explore these very same things. Anyway, this has been a long running debate over the the years. For mine i think its been well and truly laid to rest with his playing on "None to Soon" He absolutely slays the material: Countdown, Isotope, Nuages, How Deep is the Ocean etc, all standards. The other interesting thing for me is that people very rarely comment on Allan's unique time feel. Especially since the rhythmic importance of Jazz cannot be overlooked, its amazing that there is not more written about his great phrasing. Originally Posted by christianm77
Anyway you mention a few guys you know that have his thing down. I would be interested in getting to know their playing if you could PM me their names i would be interested in contacting them. Im always interested in more Allan insights. I was corresponding with an Italian guy, Nico Stufano, who had some great stuff going on but seemed to be dismissed by many as a shameless clone. Strange, that never seems to happen with Horn players. Geez, how many Coltrane and Brecker clones are there out there? No one seems to care.
Cheers
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I'm not a big fan of None to Soon, this may have a lot to do with the way the record sounds. I might have to check it out again. Just the fusion production - eek. Gordon Beck's piano sound is just hideous... Originally Posted by Jazzism
In any case, if Allan is good at standards, then he does it very much in an Allan way. I like Allan's playing in any case, and yes you are right about the time feel thing. Allan is Allan over everything. It's something I tremendously admire, and none of the great players are 'ticking boxes' - they develop an approach.
(Interesting thing is Allan started with conventional jazz influences.)
TBH the guy I know in London is called George and he lives in London - I ran into him at a jam. He's amazing but he doesn't gig much AFAIK. I didn't get his surname... I figured I would bump into him again, and I didn't get his number as he didn't seem like he'd be good for depping the trad gigs. :-) Sorry to be vague.
There are many players inspired by Allan but don't play exactly like him. Dave Preston is one guy who comes to mind.
The other two guys I can think of are in Leeds. Again names escape me - perhaps some others might be a bit more helpful here...
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