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Well I guess these are million dollar questions, but first:
I purchased The Easy Guide To Jazz Guitar Arpeggios and I've been working out of
the Guitar Grimoire on the Melodic Minor and Super Locrian (no Lipton Ice scales
for me, even if I do live down south). mr. beaumont recommended arpeggios and
learning the modes to the melodic and harmonic minor and I can play the melodic
and all of its modes but I don't really know them all over the fret board yet: that is
a work in progress but I am not overwhelmed. When I played just rock and metal
mostly (and some 'kind of blues') I didn't have to think too much about what notes
to use, I just plugged in an Aeolian, a Phrygian, Harmonic or the devastating Pelog
or Hirojoshi and went to town, so to speak. Let me throw mr. beaumont under the
bus again and say he told me to try arpeggios for Giant Steps and learn the melodic
minor modes first then the modes to the harmonic minor. My question is this: I read
in the Jazz Guitar Arpeggios book about the difference between jazz arps and classical
arps, but for the sake of style isn't it kosher to play jazz arps with the notes out of order
or with skips between? And just as big if not a bigger question--I know how to learn scales
and arps over the neck by using octaves, but is there another more thorough way of getting
familiar with them than that? I'm not asking for a "secret" per se just a missing link, or
different way of looking at the same thing. Not meaning to drag his name through the dirt
again, but Allan Holdsworth said that he sees groups of chords as members of a family, and
I know he extracts notes from a scale to use as arps and chords: that's a good system and
I'm sure quite a few musicians use it, but I'm looking for a practical way to connect all the
notes of a Melodic or Harmonic and their modes all over the neck...I know everybody has to
find what works for them--Allan H. used math to put it all together but I'm more verbal so
if I have a key word like Dorian or Lydian I immediately see the pattern then the 3rd, 4th
and 6th notes for instance, I just want to know if anyone has a method for seeing all the scale and arp
notes on the neck as C, F, G, so that no matter where I'm playing chords or notes all of the
relative scales and arps are "visible" as you'd say. I do not remember asking this and while
I know you could learn what I'm asking by rote if anyone has a better way please tell me...
Have a good day---Last edited by Roscoe T. Claude; 04-09-2016 at 08:27 AM.
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04-09-2016 08:21 AM
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04-09-2016, 08:29 AM #152dortmundjazzguitar Guest
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I just know them by shape and relative notes. At the end of the day I would really encourage you to forget spending so much time on these technical issues and simply learn more songs. Once you get the reportoire together, perform publically. As one of Australia's premier musicians said to me, "Learn the melodies ." My soloing took off to a level I never thought I'd achieve. My solos are far more musically relevant than before as they actually relate to the song. I sure hear it when they don't!
Sent from my SM-T705Y using Tapatalk
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Check out my new video. IMO If you want to play bebop, you need to know one scale REALLY well - the mixolydian/dominant but you need to understand how to use chomatic passing tones to make the scale work rhythmically, i.e.:
C B Bb A G F E D C
If the first note is on a beat. If it's an off beat, the normal mixo works fine.
You will also need how to break the scale into arpeggios, pivot arpeggios and other interesting melodic formations.
I go very quickly over the actual material in this video, so not sure if it will be helpful to everyone. Let me know what you think. It's not really a lesson, more a brain dump.
Here is how I would use decorated arpeggios as a basis for jazz improvisation - these are much more designed as lessons per se:
Part 1 even has TABZ! lol.
If you are more interested in post-Coltrane modal stuff, then it is different. I may do another video on my intervallic and chaotic approach to modal improvisation (influenced by Julian Lage, Kurt Rosenwinkel and Ben Monder but perhaps also inderectly by Allan Holdsworth) but I myself am just starting to get into this approach.
Feel free to fire questions at me, but these concepts form the basis of my approach to changes playing and note choice.Last edited by christianm77; 04-09-2016 at 09:07 AM.
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dortmundjazzguitar-actually I'm a bigger fan of Two Eagles Fightin' A Snake---they only have one album out but I listen to it all the way through three or four times a day: check them out!
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I saw my name mentioned there...
Arpeggios, in jazz, are really more of a visualization than a "prescription" for what to play...so of course you don't have to play them in order, you can add other notes, etc.
Christian's bebop scale thing is cool, it's also not beginner stuff in my opinion.
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henryrobinett, I have not addressed your most recent posts yet and I apologize--I just got caught up with things, it's nothing personal. I've been listening to advice and listening to jazz and I believe there's more to any type of music than just scales, but that may be esp. true for jazz: maybe that's why "everybody" hates it so much, much of it is difficult and not as palpable to most as say rock or pop. I will say jazz was an acquired taste for me and I've still got a L-O-N-G way to go before I appreciate all of it and can play it without wrinkles. But Henry I wasn't trying to dis you or call your credentials into question--remember I am a newbie and I am still trying to find my way around. I have looked over the free lessons and I like what I see it's just there's so damn much of it! I bought the Jazz Guitar Arpeggios book because I've been told how important arps are in soloing in jazz. Admittedly, while I love 3 note per string scales I do not care for sweep arpeggios, at least most of the time--it's nothing personal or political, I just kind of loathe the sound of them. But no offense and none taken Henry: I thank you and all the rest who offer advice--Jon
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Based on what little I know I'd say Christian's Mixolydian/Dominant scale is an excellent idea...my two favorite sounds coming from the major scale are the Lydian and Phrygian, then Aeolian and Mixolydian but I've noticed Dominant sounds are abundant in Bebop. Thanks for clarifying the Arpeggio madness Mr. Beaumont: I'm sorry if it seems I ask "stupid questions" but I believe it is vital that I consider myself an absolute beginner, which I am, and leave no stone unturned because I have learned since joining the site that even players who have 30 years experience do well to keep a "beginner's mind" as the great Senryu Suzuki would say (sp? that's a true Buddhist Zen master and author). By this point it seems clear to me that if there was a "master key" to jazz it wouldn't take 10 years to get a good hold on it, so if it sounds like I'm asking for such a key then it is just an error in my communication. I don't recall if there was another name for this product, but before I purchased the Arpeggios book I saw a Vol. 1 Ten Jazz Lessons--for $29.95. I'm not miserly but for that price I expect comprehensive, quality lessons. Anybody know what I'm talking about? It looks like it would be good for a beginner or maybe even an intermediate. Let me know what you think--
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I think the arpeggio thing is a good thing to practice to get started. It will sound a bit corny at first but it's really important work for learning how to use everything else. Anyway watch the videos if you are interested, it's not really a matter of debate for me. More a matter of just bloody well doing it ;-)
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Thanks Christian, I am definitely going to make arpeggios a vital part of my practice, along
with scales, chords, progressions, and "everything else" as you say. Right now I'm working
to organize my practice routine for the utmost efficiency. I've done different things over the
years, like Steve Vai's 10 and 30 hour workout and my own version of it, but Steve's workout
is grossly inadequate for a jazz guitarist in many ways, just my opinion, most obviously because
it is written by a rocker for rockers. Eventually I'd like to check out the routines and styles of
other jazz guitarists, esp. those that play a lot differently than I do, but for right now I keep
telling myself 'basics, basics, basics: fundamentals.' When I started on the jazz route before
my accident, well, the jazz fusion route I was into Al DiMeola and John McLaughlin, amazing
players to be certain. Well I brought my guitar instructor Friday Night In San Fran. expecting
to learn at least a song or two, and after listening to it for awhile he stops the tape sits back
and announces "Man, licks. If you knew a thousand licks, you could play that!" While I
appreciated the uh, advice, it didn't get me anywhere. So if you've got anything better than
that I'd love to hear from you! ha ha ha (and yes I have gotten some very good advice on
this forum).
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Motives for learning to play jazz (or any style) don't matter.
Originally Posted by Dana
When my son was 13 he decided to become a speed metal guitarist. He was listening to John Petrucci and folks like that. He asked me what he could do to differentiate himself from other metal guitarists and I advised him to study coltrane and bird since few metal guitarists have a mastery of that. He did and from there he branched out and studied martino, wes, benson, pass, etc. A year later he sold his solid body and bought a Gibson 165 and has been studying and playing jazz ever since.
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Was that the plan all along? ;-) Originally Posted by jzucker
That said - It would be nice to hear a speed metal guitar player with a through grasp of jazz...
Mind you Ben Monder is kind of almost that on some his Hydra stuff...
What do you think - does studying jazz mean you inevitably become a jazz guitarist?
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Hey Roscoe...
So there is technique practice and performance practice. Two very different approaches with very different goals.
The technique practice is all about being able to play anything anywhere on the fretboard....developing all the skills required to perform.
Jazz techniques with reference to being able to play all the different note(s) and rhythmic patterns requires a different understanding of what your actually playing. Which involves understanding Jazz harmony.... not Classical, rock or what is called Maj/Min functional harmony... which is "One" basic understanding of how notes react to other notes and what they're suppose to do. The guide lines or rules. Even when you don't follow them, they're still the basic reference. When your not following them, what your playing that doesn't follow the rules is still using them as the reference.
Jazz has a few different types of organization for composing or playing. Jazz typically is...not about the written tradition. The goal isn't to perform the same thing over and over. Generally the goal is the possibilities of what might be performed.
Which gets back to technique practice. If you don't have the skills to perform the original or first time through a tune correct... your going to have problems actually performing in a jazz style... the possibilities of where the music may go.
So the basic understandings of being aware of what your using for technical practice and performance practice are...
Basic maj/min functional harmony and theory, this is what western music is built upon. Basic musical knowledge. The vanilla stuff.
Moving on to jazz, your generally going to need to understand,
1)Blue notes and Harmony... the harmonic guidelines from.
2) Melodic Minor and it's harmonic common practice, again different set of guidelines.
3)Modal Interchange...the guidelines derived from common practice
4) Modal Concepts... again different guidelines derived from making different notes control function. How notes react in relationships and which notes control Function, or what creates the power for harmonic and melodic movement.
The BS fretboard skills should cover,
all scales, and patterns of those scales.
all arpeggios and patterns of those arpeggions
all chords which are derived from those scales and arpeggios
The goal is to be able to play any scale or pattern of... anywhere on the neck.
The goal of comping or chords is to be able to play any note on top of any chord anywhere on the neck.
Comping in a jazz style usually involves playing chord patterns, series of chords which imply harmonic references. And generally the lead line or top note of changes... is a melody, a counter melody, a groove melody or common tone melodic figure.
I'm just getting back to Forum... and have some questions to breakdown. But If you need more... I have lots.
I didn't really get into the performance practice thing... but personally when you practice performing what you don't have the skills to play, you usually don't develop the right skills....Last edited by Reg; 04-09-2016 at 01:14 PM.
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Reg, thank you so much for the informative reply: I will read it again soon. I understand what are saying and I see the value it it, but frankly I'm overwhelmed by it. It''s been years since I've been in school but I always performed better and learned more from teachers who didn't batter me with work but rather gave me room to breathe and learn the material my own way at my pace...I see no reason why I can't learn jazz at my own pace and not feel like I have to catch up...
Let me give you an example of my practice routine today: I have learned the sweeping patterns for the melodic and I plan on playing them forward and backward and stretching them out horizontally as well. I've played jazz chord progressions out of the prog. and improv. Guitar Grimoire book, I plan on learning and practicing arps out of the Jazz Guitar Arpeggios book and last but not least work on Autumn Leaves and Misty on YouTube: by close of business tomorrow I should have the melody and the changes down on both. Reg, if you don't mind, tell me what you think of my practice routine: keep it or leave it? Have an excellent day, Jon
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Overwhelmed.
With all due respect to Reg, that post could keep you in material for years.
IMO - what you need is something you can work on now. Learn chord tones through some songs. Learn melodies. That's a good start.
Pick a standard you like, something that Parker or Trane played, perhaps. A jazz blues for example, rhythm changes. Mr PC. ANYTHING...
If Reg disagrees with this, I would like to see his idea of a starting point, not a syllabus for a few years of study. I don't personally think that you need any more information.
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Thank you Christian for the thoughtful response: I feel I have to take into consideration all replies to my thread but it is not practical or possible to follow everyone's advice. Reg is a veteran jazz guitar player and I respect that, but his advice may be perfect for another guitarist, just not me. Christian, please don't take offense to this but I didn't watch your videos because I'm trying to do one thing at a time in each aspect of my playing and I have been working my way in and out of the Melodic Minor modes. That's one aspect, another is playing Jazz progressions and finally I'm trying to master Autumn Leaves and Misty. I'm only attempting to get the changes right as I'm going to have to get a new philosophy for improvising on these tunes, esp. the ones played at a high speed...as I've already stated on the forum I bought the Jazz Guitar Arpeggios e-book which I'm going to start working on as soon as I'm done with the forum and emails. All I see are a myriad of possibilities within the jazz universe and I hardly know where I fit, or where I'm gonna be on the spectrum of jazz guitar in a year or two, in ten years or more...? Nobody's problem but mine but why are we on this forum? To communicate and help each other. I don't have any tricks up my sleeve yet, except to say in order to be admitted to the secret exotic music society (SEMS) you must have mastered the Hungarian Minor, Persian, Pelog, Hirojoshi and Kumoi scales and god forbid your share lines from any of these sweet gems with the infidels at Guitar Center! Good Day To You!
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What I am telling you is what I was told when I started jazz guitar, and I wish I hadn't ignored it. Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
Last edited by christianm77; 04-09-2016 at 04:22 PM.
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I just finished working on Autumn Leaves and I had planned on learning and playing 4th string root chords instead of the 5th and 6th string because I think the higher notes sound better in A.L. If I can catch the rhythm up strokes work well, but they're still not as good as the 4th string root chords (also played with some upstrokes) IMO. I'll check out your videos as they do look interesting. I think you were covering some kind of bebop scales? I know all of the Bebops presented in the Guitar Grimoire but I haven't found them to be too terribly helpful--I'm sure I can learn how to use them. Take care.
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I think if you focus on practicing chord tones through Autumn Leaves for a week, maybe 10 minutes a day, that will do you the most good. You might want to try 1 3 5 7 as well as 1 3 5 as I show in the vid. I would advise practicing chord tones in quarter and half notes at a medium click - 120 bpm say. You need enough time to think. After you get confident, don't just go up and down - jump around and try and link the chords together. Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
Also pay close attention the melody. See what you notice about it.
Rhythm work - can you play a major scale in quarter notes accurately to a click of 40 bpm?Last edited by christianm77; 04-09-2016 at 04:38 PM.
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Learn as many possible chord permutations for each tune as possible. Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
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I have a lot of sympathy for looking for a "secret" because, while there isn't a secret, sometimes there is some single thing that we are just missing somehow, and when we get it, all the work we are pouring into this now starts to get us somewhere. Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
For me, it was (blush) swing. I thought I had swing all figured out, but not growing up in a jazz culture, I actually thought the rhythm of a bossa nova was SWING! So I'd play a swing tune and slip into a sort of sloppy bossa, the band would begin to stagger, and the music would... suffer. One day a guy just said "Hey, do you ever, you know... swing?"
I was kinda devastated, but decided these guys knew what they were missing from my playing. I had been listening a lot, but only to particular tunes I was working on, with a focus on the notes. So I started listening more for the feel, the spacing, all that stuff.
One day I was at the school where I teach, and was testing out a Direct Box. I went into one of our big lecture halls and just plugged the DI into the microphone outlet and plugged my guitar in and started playing something, I forget what. I got a bit past testing the DI and was just playing for fun when I realized one of the guys in that "Do you ever swing?" group was just standing in the very back of the lecture room grinning maniacally. "Guy, you got it today! Where was it last time?"
"Swing" more or less clicked for me that day. It didn't make the work any harder, but it did mean my work seemed to mean something, seemed to go somewhere, seemed fruitful.
So I think it's very, very likely that coming from a non-jazz background, you likely do have some random pieces of the puzzle that have not fallen in place for you and so your skills, your hard work don't seem to be getting you there.
My suggestion is to make a video of yourself playing something, say, "Autumn Leaves" with the backing track. Post it and let the crew here listen to it. They'll give you honest feedback, and I can tell you 95% of the folks here are as kind and considerate as they are honest. You might find in someone's reactions a clue that will help you make that critical adjustment you might need.
On the other hand, i could just be totally wrong on this, and if so, please accept my apology and understand I'm trying to empathize and help.
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That's a very helpful clip--nice use of just one or two concepts. I struggle still with starting arpeggios on the roots, but when i do walking bass in solo guitar, I easily find my "next" notes and use chromaticism. But soloing I tend to not use those tools. he did a great job applying that. Very basic stuff, but I appreciated it. Originally Posted by christianm77
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Yeah I may have to double the practice time you gave me if I want to get something resembling improvisation over the chords. My sticking point right now is I'm having trouble changing chords smoothly, and even though they don't sound as good in the tune as the chords with 4th string roots I am determined to make the "big" chords work first as I feel I'm building my chops by getting them up to speed and clean. Next time I play the song I'm going to try humming the melody to myself, which is what some have been suggesting all along. I usually don't have too much trouble learning the melody--kind of sticks out but the chords? I hear the changes but not the quality of each chord: I can tell major, minor, dominant or diminished in some cases but I guess I just need to listen to and play more jazz---Lastly I kind of answered my own question about the jazz progressions in the Guitar Grimoire: I'm gonna use the book for added practice but devote most of my time to learning tunes. I have memorized and can play all the modes of the melodic minor but I haven't even begun to stretch them out and master them.
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Ironically, learning tunes is a kind of "short cut" not in the sense of being less work, but in the sense that if you were studying a foreign language, living in the country where it was spoken would make your learning a lot more meaningful, and therefore, more effective and efficient. By learning tunes, you have a constant context for trying out the ideas you get from technique study. You also internalize a lot of classic jazz ideas.
For example, I once heard that THE most popular lick ever in all of jazz playing was the opening line of "Cry Me A River." I don't know if that statement is true, but seriously, you will hear that phrase everywhere, possibly in every solo you ever listen to. Once you get it in your head, it just wants to pop out.
Here it is, you'll probably recognize it instantly:
Last edited by lawson-stone; 04-09-2016 at 06:52 PM.
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I understand your confusion, OP.
The other day, I went to a weightlifting forum and told everyone I wanted to deadlift 700 lbs. My plan is to do lots of curls with 2 lb dumbbells, jog a couple hours a day, and eat nothing but salads and smoothies.
Instead, they gave me all these other training and diet programs, and asked to see video of my form so they could give feedback. I appreciated the advice, but I like my plan better.
I'm going to try asking another forum to see if they'll agree with my plan. Sometimes you got to go with your gut, y'know?
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