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I too have a long ways to go but on the other hand you could just be
beastly dead and have nothing to do but slowly decay, so I'd say we
are blessed! One thing nobody's brought up I don't believe is finger
exercises: rock guitar gods Satriani and Vai are nuts about finger
exercises and even later into their careers I think they still use them.
My opinion is they can certainly serve a purpose so I have borrowed
a few and made up a few of my own. The notes of course come from
scales but the exercises are rarely musical. I don't believe you have
to be a wannabe shred head to use exercises: they help you be more fluid
with your scale phrasing is all. I gotta go...Take care!
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04-01-2016 03:38 PM
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No, you have to know and understand the modes. Absolutely essential for anything other than playing over 40s and 50s show tunes
Originally Posted by boatheelmusic
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I know the modes well but I think I need Carol to smack me upside the head so that I can realize jazz is about playing music whether you study scales are not. I believe it pays to be open minded and knowing scales does not mean you have to be a shredder--start sweep picking scales and arpeggios in front of George Benson or Buddy Guy and they probably play just a few choice notes and shut your ass up! I didn't mean to start a yes scales no scales debate but I guess it was, and is inevitable. I'm of the opinion to each his own (or her own.) Scales interest me but after weighing in I have to say there are other ways to play. There are dynamite players on both sides and thank you all for the discussion.
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Yeah. Let me see if I can articulate this better. The issue in jazz is not whether you know scales or not. You HAVE to know them very, very well. The issue is whether you PLAY them. Two very, very different things. I rarely PLAY a straight scale. Almost never. It sounds too corny and fusiony or lame. But they form the back drop of everything. I SEE the fretboard with them.
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Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
George Benson would play circles around your favorite shredders. The difference is his playing would be harmonically and melodically sophisticated, while playing at break neck speed.
And he'd do it with a smile.
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Henry, I see what you are saying and I agree that knowing the scales and visualizing them
is a great, tight method of playing but I cannot say yours is the only way...I mean everybody's
different and maybe no two people see things exactly the same way. Some people have to tap
their foot to keep time, some have to count, some can just do it naturally, so who's right and
who's wrong? As long as they're keeping time they're all right. One person knows and draws
from scales and plays great jazz, another plays by ear and maybe knows only a pentatonic and
plays great jazz, who is right and who is wrong? They're both great players and they're both
right and what I am saying here is not experimental: I have seen it with real people in real life.
Great playing to all! Jon
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There are universal truths to playing and understanding jazz. Methods vary. But to play at a certain level some things don't change.
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It depends on what you like. I don't like players who play and found like they're playing scales. I won't use names. But you don't find horn players or piano players playing like that. Listen to Trane, Cannonball, Rollins, Brown, Hubbard, Bird, -- where the real language is.
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Boston Joe, I've had a private conversation about Holdsworth with another member and I told him in so many words that while I appreciate his style he doesn't m-o-v-e me like some of my other faves do. Same thing with Frank Gambale: I use his picking technique and stylistic approach but he causes ripples in the mind not a heart beating in the throat. So why so I do it? Why do I listen to and learn from these jazz fusion players when Stevie Ray is my man...? I don't know, curious, born under a bad sign, who knows? It's funny you mention The Grateful Dead: I often jam with my uncle and he's into a lot of older stuff--folk, standards, Dylan etc. and he is way impressed with Grisman and Garcia: We even played a two guitar version of Walking Boss---tons of fun! My Uncle thinks Jerry Garcia is a very good guitarist...is he just different? Even when I play the blues I use scale tones like the major and minor 6th, major 2nd and 3rd and maybe a chromatic tone to give the blues scale color: using those notes I can solo well out of just one position. On guitar scales are constructed of notes linked in mini-patterns which make up scales: how do you not play mini-patterns and scales when you play? I told vintagelove I was going to go a month without playing scales: I couldn't go a minute! I am not a close minded person if you know an alternative to scales I'd be happy to hear it...All The Best
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I might write a song called Moonray: but I have too many ideas to name.
I'm going to go to where I wrote down the 6 Aspects of Jazz I want to
master by the end of ten years. Temptation has been dragging me back
to the blues but that is a girl I can dance with anytime...I've got a lot
of steps to learn but I know I can dance with Jazz too. I'm off to get my
list and my guitar: thanks Moonray!
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if you want to learn scales learn all the permutations of the major, melodic minor, harmonic minor and all their modes in all 12 keys up and down the fret board, played through all the arpeggios derived from those scales in root, 1st, 2nd and 3rd inversion, played through cycles of 4ths, moving in thirds, diatonically, chromatically, played through all the intervals in the scales, 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths and 7ths and playing through them on every degree of the scale, practicing playing both vertically and horizontally etc...
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Hey nick '94, thanks for the sage advice, and I'm sure there are plenty of cats who could benefit from doing just what you listed. I'm also sure that if we sat down and played together you would teach me a lesson or two, so I give up you win! But so far as the recommendation goes I just finished looking at my ten year list, that's the six aspects of jazz I want to have mastered at the end of ten years and on one hand I'm confident I can master the list, but on the other I know I will have to work diligently and differently than most. In '04 I was in a high speed car accident that left me paralyzed and with a Traumatic Brain Injury--it took, well, anyway, I have short term memory impairment and learning all the permutations for me is not practical. But tell me it can't be done another way and I'll show you another way...does everybody have to learn and play the same way? I think in all actuality jazz and music itself thrives on diversity--
Yngwie Malmsteen said he knew all the music theory there is to know: Stevie Ray vaughan said he only knew 2 scales--would you have guessed it? I've been working on Davis' Autumn Leaves today so I'm headed in that direction soon.
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Before I go---running or crawling or carrying on I don't read notation and I can't transcribe, and I'm not gonna take the time to learn because I don't need it to survive or play jazz. Shoot me. I don't care. I'm going to have to be unconventional with this jazz thing but if I throw myself into my 6 Aspects I will become the player I want to be.
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Jazz is good for the brain. It may even help it heal, there is evidence to suggest that the thinking Jazz mind creates new neuronal connections which hopefully might improve memory, cognition etc. But you gotta work it. Playing rote scales is not working the brain, just "muscle memory". Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
Be inspired by Pat Martino's story (watch the doco about it). Brain aneurism totally wiped his brain clean off all the music it contained (which was prodigious). But he tenaciously clawed it back, inch by inch over many years. He relearned to play. He became a master twice in one life. Most of us are lucky to get half way to mastery in a single life.
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you don't need to know how to read to transcribe, transcribe to me means to learn it, learn to sing it, learn to play it then write it down if you want. if you know the player you want to be and how to get there then no need for advice. Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
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Transcription doesn't necessarily mean writing down music notation. We usually mean that we copy phrases by ear (sometimes slowing it down to get it). Copy enough phrases, and remember them so you can play along with Miles, or whoever. That's probably the only "shortcut" I've heard players speak of, but it takes a great ear as well as a great mind to learn Jazz this way. You gotta decode all the Jazz words and sentences you learn so you can re speak them in many different contexts...
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Hey Roscoe there's already a song called Moonray .....it was tune that Artie Shaw
wrote.
He was one of the great swing band leaders in the 30's and 40's.
And probably one of the most complete clarinetists there has ever been in jazz.
Those were the days when they had clarinet heroes....trombone heroes too....
I kid you not....
Moonray is one of my fave tunes of that period.....I first heard a guitar version by a very cool guitarist
called Eddie Duran many years ago and the MJQ did a version .....a bluesy minor key number.
The thing with this jazz thang is that there are references that go way back and part of the love
comes from tracking the backstory.
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Well, I like Garcia a lot. He wasn't a jazz guitarist, though. He came from a folk/blues/country tradition. He did follow the changes more than your average rock guitarist, and he had a seemingly never ending supply of melodic ideas. Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
You seem very oriented towards speed, with Holdsworth, and Gambale, etc. Try listening to some players who don't shred quite as much. Garcia, Mark Knopfler, Miles, B.B. King, etc. Listen to how they create melodic interest with fewer notes and more space. Then maybe listen to someone like Larry Coryell or John Scofield who can do both.
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This situation is not limited to just scales. Playing by rote anything, chord tones, transcriptions, tunes, etc. leads to the same basic place. Likewise, when we stay fully engaged, any material, including scales can take on meaning beyond muscle memory.Playing rote scales is not working the brain, just "muscle memory.
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How much jazz does one need to play to be a "jazz guitarist?"
Garcia was an outstanding player who achieved something few do--the synthesis of dozens of influences into a singular, instantly recognizable style.
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Eh, that just leads back to the eternal "What is jazz?" debate. I know Garcia was familiar with the jazz tradition, but it seems to me that most of his stuff comes from country and folk. But whatever. You could probably say the same about Frisell, and he's considered a jazz guy. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Yes. Yes! This is it exactly. Almost every stream of American music met in Garcia, and he turned them into something unique.Garcia was an outstanding player who achieved something few do--the synthesis of dozens of influences into a singular, instantly recognizable style.
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Time to learn a LOT OF TUNES.
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Why is Jerry Garcia even mentioned along the jazz, rock or blues greats? Beats me. If you want swingless noodling that doesn't go anywhere and never ends than Garcia is your man. I will never forget spending my hard earned cash on Greatful Dead tape just because someone in Guitar Player magazine called them a great rock band. What a waste of money that was!
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Did you check out the video with Grisman above? Or did you listen with your eyes? Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
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Never listened to much GD, but I dug that video. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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