Improvising over Dm9 - Bb9#11 - G/A-A+7 progression?

[rpjazzguitar]

It's a variation of Dm Fm Em A7.

Start on a minor, move up a minor third, drop down a half step into a ii V.

That happens in standards.

[djg]

Yeah I guess using the II7 for a D minor turnaround isn't that weird, so it's really just one thing, the sequence of chords. Starting the progression on D minor, dominant in bar 2, and then the A in bars 3 and 4 really sounds to me like A is home.

bar three is not even "Asus" for the whole bar. the A moves to G. i agree that bar 3 is home.

[BreckerFan]

I mean … a standard Dm turnaround would be:

Dm Bm7b5 Bb7 A7

So really it’s just a switch between the middle chords and that A in the bass.

G7#11 is also a pretty common subdominant in that context

Right but that sequence makes a difference. Setting up the A in bar 2, sometimes with E7, and hanging on it for two bars sounds different than going through that standard turnaround cycle. Same with the A in the bass, G/A isn't a G chord, it's Asus.

I think it's kind of ambiguous, in a way that a lot of R&B or neo soul progressions can be. I'm not saying it's "in" A, just that the two bars of A sound like where it's leading. As far as playing it, the difference is that I wouldn't be thinking D minor over the whole thing, I would emphasize A sus to A7. But that doesn't mean you can't achieve the same thing by thinking D minor.

[Christian Miller]

I mean sure Dm Bb7 A7 is a very common chord progression, but so is Dm E7 A (of some variety). There are two features I think that make it not sound like Dm is home.

The first is the sequence of the chords. It starts on Dm and resolves to A in bar 3. Chord progressions that use the bVI V I thing don't really do that, if anything they start on the bVI and go to the I in bar 3 (off the top of my head, What you won't do for love or blue in green (with caveats that the first chord is actually G min blah blah)).

Holger (djg) is correct from the mainstream perspective. But then, the Germans invented this stuff haha ;-)

What I'd say for non dogmatic position is that conventional (ie classical) music theory is not really designed to analyse music built on a four chord loops. As this cycle loops, so the heard tonal centre is ambiguous. I'm not saying you are wrong in your perceptions. There is a STRONG pull to A and the G/A is a relatively consonant chord. But there is also a pull to Dm at the top of the loop. Where do you hang your hat? It goes around and around.

That said, you should know that from a modern mainstream perspective, theorists would say it is in D minor. There's no reason to say it isn't.

I know jazzers think about II V I's all the time, but not all music in a given key has to finish on I. There are plenty of examples that don't.

My favourite is movement 2 of Bach's Brandenburg Concerto which is literally two chords - Am/C and B (the soloist is meant to improvise on them - I guess he was in a rush that day.) The music clearly indicates the key is E minor. We all this progression a half cadence in E minor. You might say B Phrygian (with a major third), and who knows, maybe Bach would have agreed.

Brandenburg Concerto No. 3 in G major, BWV 1048: 2. Adagio — Johann Sebastian Bach Sheet Music for Contrabass, Violin, Viola, Cello (String Ensemble) | MuseScore.com

The B7 sets up the next movement which starts up in G major. The E minor is never heard. Bit like Spain.

The second is subbing the E7 for the Bb7 (or vice versa). That's quite clearly tonicizing the A, but it's a little strange for something in Dm.

It's not at all strange and has been part of the Western musical lexicon since at least the 1700s, especially in a minor key.
Augmented sixth chord - Wikipedia
In fact it was kind of the default thing to do on the bVI degree for 18th/19th century composers. It's no surprise we see it cropping up very often in the GASB canon and beyond.

[BreckerFan]

I think the weird thing is analyzing a neo soul progression using Bach, but you do you. I'm not thinking about it as classical music because it isn't. And sure, I don't really know academic classical theory, because that's not what I play.

Sure you can analyze the chords as belonging to D minor. Never said you can't. My point is the tension and resolution created by the structure of the chord progression feels like it's going to A, not D minor. And it's a chord loop, so the fact that after 5 minutes it ends on D minor doesn't really do anything for me. The actual musical situation you have when playing over it is this kind of ambiguous loop that's setting up and hanging on A. When you're playing over that, IMO you need to emphasize that.

[Christian Miller]

I think the weird thing is analyzing a neo soul progression using Bach, but you do you. I'm not thinking about it as classical music because it isn't. And sure, I don't really know academic classical theory, because that's not what I play.

European harmony is borrowed throughout American music. It's not the only thing, but it acts as a basis for many points of departure. Pianists all start with classical music, whatever else they learn - so they have that in their ears even if they don't know a cadential 6/4 chord from a hole in the road. (But you'll Adam Manness using that terminology, right - for Gospel harmony, which is a case in point.) I mean Q studied with Boulanger. These worlds are not neatly separated.

If something is done in classical harmony - it's kind of vanilla.

But that's by the by - the important point I'm trying to make is that this progression is actually very conventional with the soul (boom Ching) exception of that G/A chord. The G/A is an interesting colour but also fits into D minor. There's nothing that makes me think this is not D minor.

So I'd say - it is in D minor. There is also a strong pull towards the G/A thanks to the Bb7#11.

Both things can be true. Songs in a key can resolve to the V chord. They've been doing that for centuries.

Sure you can analyze the chords as belonging to D minor. Never said you can't. My point is the tension and resolution created by the structure of the chord progression feels like it's going to A, not D minor. And it's a chord loop, so the fact that after 5 minutes it ends on D minor doesn't really do anything for me. The actual musical situation you have when playing over it is this kind of ambiguous loop that's setting up and hanging on A. When you're playing over that, IMO you need to emphasize that.

On the other hand, D minor pentatonic feels right on it, so there is that haha.

Usually with key, it's the melody that gives it away.

[joe2758]

I like theory as much as the next nerd, but I feel like Peter kind of ended the debate with his video example.

[Christian Miller]

I like theory as much as the next nerd, but I feel like Peter kind of ended the debate with his video example.

Yeah, it's like Berkeley kicking the rock innit. D minor pentatonic. Simple as. Bosh.

However, it's interesting to me how subjective and weirdly hard to pin down the idea of key is - even in music that is always meant to be solidly in a key, like classical music. I'm sorry if I'm bad at communicating it. If people hear the central chord as A, that's cool.

But also, D minor pentatonic.

[BreckerFan]

You can analyze music through many frameworks, but that doesn't define what the music is. You can also trace many influences or historical parallels in music, but that likewise isn't definitional of what the music is. I've been to plenty of Philly gospel shows with 15 year olds shredding this kind of stuff better than all of us combined. I doubt they're thinking about Bach. We should probably be asking them what they play.

If you want to play D min pentatonic over this, it'll probably sound fine. I would probably think of it as Dmin E7 A7. Do with that whatever you please.

[pamosmusic]

Yeah, it's like Berkeley kicking the rock innit. D minor pentatonic. Simple as. Bosh.

However, it's interesting to me how subjective and weirdly hard to pin down the idea of key is - even in music that is always meant to be solidly in a key, like classical music. I'm sorry if I'm bad at communicating it. If people hear the central chord as A, that's cool.

But also, D minor pentatonic.

For the record, I don't particularly care about the key except that Dm blues scale just works. Bob's ur uncle.

[mr. beaumont]

I mean, if you really want to sound smooth jazz, just play D minor (be sure to get in a few favorite blues licks) maybe address the G/A with a G major triad outline, and definitely get a C# on that A7#5 "turnaround" chord.

D minor ideas to an A7 over the last 2 beats.

[pamosmusic]

I like theory as much as the next nerd, but I feel like Peter kind of ended the debate with his video example.

He said 2 pages later.

[ragman1]

I like theory as much as the next nerd, but I feel like Peter kind of ended the debate with his video example.

There are many ways to do it, there's no one conclusive version. That's the whole point, which is why everyone has their own ideas. Which is why Joe Passé, bless him (great name), will have to do the same.

[joe2758]

It's funny my theoretical guess was Emin blues lol I guess I couldn't have been further off. No, I'm not going to try it

actually I meant if you're tuned down a step

[Christian Miller]

You can analyze music through many frameworks, but that doesn't define what the music is. You can also trace many influences or historical parallels in music, but that likewise isn't definitional of what the music is. I've been to plenty of Philly gospel shows with 15 year olds shredding this kind of stuff better than all of us combined. I doubt they're thinking about Bach. We should probably be asking them what they play.

Don't get hung up on the Bach thing, it's not that important. I'm really just trying to give very vanilla examples. My logic, such as it is is, is that if Bb7's in Dm or songs ending on chords other than the I are not weird in early 18th century music, they are unlikely to be weird in 21st century music - it's all part of the cultural commons one way or another. We still like those old progressions and use them. A thing going Im bVI7 V is one of those

There's a theoretically definitive answer to the question 'are these chords in D minor' and I think Pete, djg and so on have covered it well. None of which contradicts what you are saying about that pull to the G/A chord.

If you want to play D min pentatonic over this, it'll probably sound fine. I would probably think of it as Dmin E7 A7. Do with that whatever you please.

Well Pete did it two or three pages ago. I think it sounds right.

Dmin E7 A7 hip. Perhaps a little too bebop - maybe something to reference in passing as a bit of spice?

[Dean_G]

I think you're more likely to keep the gig if you can play some BB style blues in C . Or Am. Or both. Throw in some chord tones over the Bb7#11 and A7#5.

[Christian Miller]

I think you're more likely to keep the gig if you can play some BB style blues in C . Or Am. Or both. Throw in some chord tones over the Bb7#11 and A7#5.

Ah nuts, I quite like the Am pentatonic as well. Quite interesting...

In theory it doesn't really fit with Bb7#11.... in practice... use your ears.

[djg]

the whole thing almost sounds like a cheesy 90s reharm of i wish you love. try it for some minutes and you might warm up to the key of C.

[Christian Miller]

Is this backing track actually some sort of jazz Rorschach ink blot?

[Jimmy Mack]

For the record, I don't particularly care about the key except that Dm blues scale just works. Bob's ur uncle.

Quote: "mr. beaumont

I mean, if you really want to sound smooth jazz, just play D minor (be sure to get in a few favorite blues licks) maybe address the G/A with a G major triad outline, and definitely get a C# on that A7#5 "turnaround" chord.

D minor ideas to an A7 over the last 2 beats."

I mean J--sus already, that's what I said almost 2 days ago. I think you guys just scared the OP even more away from this tune.

I hear Dm9 Bb13 (with that big ol G, I hardly hear a b6 ((E)), G - A #5. Find the notes and get on with practice boys.

[BreckerFan]

D-7 E7 A7 only sounds bebop if you play it bebop. I had originally said I would do D dorian (maybe with pentatonic shifting), E7 altered (altered scale, 7#5 arpeggio, even augmented/whole tone stuff, whatever vocabulary for altered that you want), Asus2 triad arpeggios or E min pentatonic over A7sus, and then A altered.

Also keep in mind, the Bb7#11 is explicitly substituted with E7 altered half the time on the chord sheet.

But it was never my intention to imply just playing D min is bad or worse. If you can sell it, blues away.

[Christian Miller]

D-7 E7 A7 only sounds bebop if you play it bebop. I had originally said I would do D dorian (maybe with pentatonic shifting), E7 altered (altered scale, 7#5 arpeggio, even augmented/whole tone stuff, whatever vocabulary for altered that you want), Asus2 triad arpeggios or E min pentatonic over A7sus, and then A altered.

Also keep in mind, the Bb7#11 is explicitly substituted with E7 altered half the time on the chord sheet.

But it was never my intention to imply just playing D min is bad or worse. If you can sell it, blues away.

Well too jazz, whatever.

This is the point I made in my video earlier - we can play a load of harmonic options on these chords, but is it the vibe?

[BreckerFan]

I'm not telling anyone you should do it. Play whatever you want. My goodness.

[Dean_G]

the whole thing almost sounds like a cheesy 90s reharm of i wish you love. try it for some minutes and you might warm up to the key of C.

I've always found I Wish You Love rather cheesy anyway.

Play it faster 2beats per change and could use for My Little Suede Shoes. (In C)

[Christian Miller]

I'm not telling anyone you should do it. Play whatever you want. My goodness.

Want? What do you think this is - an opportunity for self expression?

Dm blues m8. Simple as. Maybe a C# on the A7 chord. Bosh. Job done. Invoice that sucker.