Improvising over Dm9 - Bb9#11 - G/A-A+7 progression?

[Christian Miller]

I think the weird thing is analyzing a neo soul progression using Bach, but you do you. I'm not thinking about it as classical music because it isn't. And sure, I don't really know academic classical theory, because that's not what I play.

European harmony is borrowed throughout American music. It's not the only thing, but it acts as a basis for many points of departure. Pianists all start with classical music, whatever else they learn - so they have that in their ears even if they don't know a cadential 6/4 chord from a hole in the road. (But you'll Adam Manness using that terminology, right - for Gospel harmony, which is a case in point.) I mean Q studied with Boulanger. These worlds are not neatly separated.

If something is done in classical harmony - it's kind of vanilla.

But that's by the by - the important point I'm trying to make is that this progression is actually very conventional with the soul (boom Ching) exception of that G/A chord. The G/A is an interesting colour but also fits into D minor. There's nothing that makes me think this is not D minor.

So I'd say - it is in D minor. There is also a strong pull towards the G/A thanks to the Bb7#11.

Both things can be true. Songs in a key can resolve to the V chord. They've been doing that for centuries.

Sure you can analyze the chords as belonging to D minor. Never said you can't. My point is the tension and resolution created by the structure of the chord progression feels like it's going to A, not D minor. And it's a chord loop, so the fact that after 5 minutes it ends on D minor doesn't really do anything for me. The actual musical situation you have when playing over it is this kind of ambiguous loop that's setting up and hanging on A. When you're playing over that, IMO you need to emphasize that.

On the other hand, D minor pentatonic feels right on it, so there is that haha.

Usually with key, it's the melody that gives it away.

[joe2758]

I like theory as much as the next nerd, but I feel like Peter kind of ended the debate with his video example.

[Christian Miller]

I like theory as much as the next nerd, but I feel like Peter kind of ended the debate with his video example.

Yeah, it's like Berkeley kicking the rock innit. D minor pentatonic. Simple as. Bosh.

However, it's interesting to me how subjective and weirdly hard to pin down the idea of key is - even in music that is always meant to be solidly in a key, like classical music. I'm sorry if I'm bad at communicating it. If people hear the central chord as A, that's cool.

But also, D minor pentatonic.

[BreckerFan]

You can analyze music through many frameworks, but that doesn't define what the music is. You can also trace many influences or historical parallels in music, but that likewise isn't definitional of what the music is. I've been to plenty of Philly gospel shows with 15 year olds shredding this kind of stuff better than all of us combined. I doubt they're thinking about Bach. We should probably be asking them what they play.

If you want to play D min pentatonic over this, it'll probably sound fine. I would probably think of it as Dmin E7 A7. Do with that whatever you please.

[pamosmusic]

Yeah, it's like Berkeley kicking the rock innit. D minor pentatonic. Simple as. Bosh.

However, it's interesting to me how subjective and weirdly hard to pin down the idea of key is - even in music that is always meant to be solidly in a key, like classical music. I'm sorry if I'm bad at communicating it. If people hear the central chord as A, that's cool.

But also, D minor pentatonic.

For the record, I don't particularly care about the key except that Dm blues scale just works. Bob's ur uncle.

[mr. beaumont]

I mean, if you really want to sound smooth jazz, just play D minor (be sure to get in a few favorite blues licks) maybe address the G/A with a G major triad outline, and definitely get a C# on that A7#5 "turnaround" chord.

D minor ideas to an A7 over the last 2 beats.

[pamosmusic]

I like theory as much as the next nerd, but I feel like Peter kind of ended the debate with his video example.

He said 2 pages later.

[ragman1]

I like theory as much as the next nerd, but I feel like Peter kind of ended the debate with his video example.

There are many ways to do it, there's no one conclusive version. That's the whole point, which is why everyone has their own ideas. Which is why Joe Passé, bless him (great name), will have to do the same.

[joe2758]

It's funny my theoretical guess was Emin blues lol I guess I couldn't have been further off. No, I'm not going to try it

actually I meant if you're tuned down a step

[Christian Miller]

You can analyze music through many frameworks, but that doesn't define what the music is. You can also trace many influences or historical parallels in music, but that likewise isn't definitional of what the music is. I've been to plenty of Philly gospel shows with 15 year olds shredding this kind of stuff better than all of us combined. I doubt they're thinking about Bach. We should probably be asking them what they play.

Don't get hung up on the Bach thing, it's not that important. I'm really just trying to give very vanilla examples. My logic, such as it is is, is that if Bb7's in Dm or songs ending on chords other than the I are not weird in early 18th century music, they are unlikely to be weird in 21st century music - it's all part of the cultural commons one way or another. We still like those old progressions and use them. A thing going Im bVI7 V is one of those

There's a theoretically definitive answer to the question 'are these chords in D minor' and I think Pete, djg and so on have covered it well. None of which contradicts what you are saying about that pull to the G/A chord.

If you want to play D min pentatonic over this, it'll probably sound fine. I would probably think of it as Dmin E7 A7. Do with that whatever you please.

Well Pete did it two or three pages ago. I think it sounds right.

Dmin E7 A7 hip. Perhaps a little too bebop - maybe something to reference in passing as a bit of spice?

[Dean_G]

I think you're more likely to keep the gig if you can play some BB style blues in C . Or Am. Or both. Throw in some chord tones over the Bb7#11 and A7#5.

[Christian Miller]

I think you're more likely to keep the gig if you can play some BB style blues in C . Or Am. Or both. Throw in some chord tones over the Bb7#11 and A7#5.

Ah nuts, I quite like the Am pentatonic as well. Quite interesting...

In theory it doesn't really fit with Bb7#11.... in practice... use your ears.

[djg]

the whole thing almost sounds like a cheesy 90s reharm of i wish you love. try it for some minutes and you might warm up to the key of C.

[Christian Miller]

Is this backing track actually some sort of jazz Rorschach ink blot?

[Jimmy Mack]

For the record, I don't particularly care about the key except that Dm blues scale just works. Bob's ur uncle.

Quote: "mr. beaumont

I mean, if you really want to sound smooth jazz, just play D minor (be sure to get in a few favorite blues licks) maybe address the G/A with a G major triad outline, and definitely get a C# on that A7#5 "turnaround" chord.

D minor ideas to an A7 over the last 2 beats."

I mean J--sus already, that's what I said almost 2 days ago. I think you guys just scared the OP even more away from this tune.

I hear Dm9 Bb13 (with that big ol G, I hardly hear a b6 ((E)), G - A #5. Find the notes and get on with practice boys.

[BreckerFan]

D-7 E7 A7 only sounds bebop if you play it bebop. I had originally said I would do D dorian (maybe with pentatonic shifting), E7 altered (altered scale, 7#5 arpeggio, even augmented/whole tone stuff, whatever vocabulary for altered that you want), Asus2 triad arpeggios or E min pentatonic over A7sus, and then A altered.

Also keep in mind, the Bb7#11 is explicitly substituted with E7 altered half the time on the chord sheet.

But it was never my intention to imply just playing D min is bad or worse. If you can sell it, blues away.

[Christian Miller]

D-7 E7 A7 only sounds bebop if you play it bebop. I had originally said I would do D dorian (maybe with pentatonic shifting), E7 altered (altered scale, 7#5 arpeggio, even augmented/whole tone stuff, whatever vocabulary for altered that you want), Asus2 triad arpeggios or E min pentatonic over A7sus, and then A altered.

Also keep in mind, the Bb7#11 is explicitly substituted with E7 altered half the time on the chord sheet.

But it was never my intention to imply just playing D min is bad or worse. If you can sell it, blues away.

Well too jazz, whatever.

This is the point I made in my video earlier - we can play a load of harmonic options on these chords, but is it the vibe?

[BreckerFan]

I'm not telling anyone you should do it. Play whatever you want. My goodness.

[Dean_G]

the whole thing almost sounds like a cheesy 90s reharm of i wish you love. try it for some minutes and you might warm up to the key of C.

I've always found I Wish You Love rather cheesy anyway.

Play it faster 2beats per change and could use for My Little Suede Shoes. (In C)

[Christian Miller]

I'm not telling anyone you should do it. Play whatever you want. My goodness.

Want? What do you think this is - an opportunity for self expression?

Dm blues m8. Simple as. Maybe a C# on the A7 chord. Bosh. Job done. Invoice that sucker.

[BreckerFan]

The aforementioned Philly gospel prodigies didn't get the memo that D min blues is the only thing you're allowed to play.

[Christian Miller]

The aforementioned Philly gospel prodigies didn't get the memo that D min blues is the only thing you're allowed to play.

More than me jobs worth.

It’s funny that you hear gospel chops raging on a neo soul progression and I hear middle of the road cheesy smooth jazz which probably says more about my cultural reference points sadly. (Your version sounds a lot more fun.)

Of course, if I wanted to learn to play like a Philly gospel prodigy, I would start by listening to what they play, trying to copy it, failing and then doing something easier instead.

In the vastly more likely event that someone calls me to play on a smooth jazz track for instance on a library music session*, I’m gonna bust out the Dm blues octaves. Maybe a touch of changes in there. Bit of tasteful, polished and appropriate mediocrity. I expect this is what Amos had in mind.

What say you Amos?

*although I imagine AI done killed that sector. It’s still more likely.


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[joe2758]

Quote: "I think you guys just scared the OP even more away from this tune.

I think that would actually be for the best

[Christian Miller]

I think that would actually be for the best

He needs to go to Philly, clearly.


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[Mick-7]

It's not a tune, it's just a 4 bar progression that you folks have debated about for more than 100 posts, in what other forum would you see that?