Improvising over Dm9 - Bb9#11 - G/A-A+7 progression?

[Joe Passé]

I'll just add at this point that I can see I'm in a little over my head. I need to read through the advice again, and do a bit of work to make it fit mentally.

I'll also work through the arpeggios of these in a couple positions, learn some new scale patterns and maybe associated triads, and see what develops.

I'll check back in a year or so when I've sorted that out. It's been very helpful to point me in the right direction.

[pamosmusic]

It seems to me an Am7 vamp thing. Dm7 is iv going to Bb7#11 (or E7 )the V7 To Am7 voiced like A9sus but actually Am7 then A7#5 leads back to Dm 9. I'd play in Am blues idiom hitting the leading tones where my ear tells me, G# in Bb7 - to Am and C# in A7 back to Dm 9. And as stated earlier Cmajor scale pretty much covers it.

It’s all Dm-ish … there’s no Am. Bb7 going to A7 … G/A a pretty standard Asus thing. So it’s Dm. Not Am.

Play them both over it and see what sounds better

[pamosmusic]

I definitely hear it in Am or C. It just starts on the iv chord (or ii chord of C)

You don’t need to play an Am chord to be in Am, or a C chord to be in C

yes but if it starts on Dm, goes to the bVI7 then the Vsus and the V of Dm, then it might be Dm

[rpjazzguitar]

I definitely hear it in Am or C. It just starts on the iv chord (or ii chord of C)

You don’t need to play an Am chord to be in Am, or a C chord to be in C

If I had to specify the simplest possible way to think about it for soloing without horribly glaring clams, then maybe:

All white keys except, for the Bb7#11, flat the A.

Of course, it does matter which white key at which time.

[pamosmusic]

If I had to specify the simplest possible way to think about it for soloing without horribly glaring clams, then maybe:

All white keys except, for the Bb7#11, flat the A.

Of course, it does matter which white key at which time.

erm ... no Bb?

ya'll Dm

[Dean_G]

I have to disagree. And I have played over it. In fact I started out analyzing it as Dm shit...until I played it. Each dominant chord is going to a minor temporary tonic. And the starting chord is Dm 9. But the overall tonality is Am7 or Cmaj. Play an Am9 instead of the "G/A" and see. Saying it's all Dm is like saying Just Friends is in the key of C instead of G.
Let's take out the transitional dominants and bass tones and reduce this to F maj- G maj. What we have modally equates to G mixolydian aka G7. What key is that? C maj , or it's relative minor, Amin. If you move the G triad up a scale degree you arrive at A min triad. Bb7#11 to G/A is missing information because we don't have a third articulated. But in context it is a C natural. Think C6 A7 Dm7 "backdoor" Bb7. Only start the cycle on Dm 9. That progression is moving from Dm to Am. Or Fmaj7 to Cmaj7. In either case it's like sub dominant to tonic.

[Jimmy Mack]

Quoting Pamosmusic:

"It’s all Dm-ish … there’s no Am. Bb7 going to A7 … G/A a pretty standard Asus thing. So it’s Dm. Not Am.

Play them both over it and see what sounds better"

That's what I said at the top!

I picked up the guitar to jam on the track last night, and since the first chord is Dm9, I started in Dm. Seeing a bVI 9, I simply thought Key of F. Major and minor, minor and Major. Like Autumn Leaves! I had no problems riffing and improvising in D harmonic Minor. Very important in streamlining this. Later on I did likewise in C and Am.

Seems like guys are making it so Theory complicated. The OP asked for a way to streamline (finding a common thread). Read his OP!

I as an enthusiastic student of jazz myself, with many years of playing other stuff, gave him the best advice - a way that worked terrifically for me, things I obtained from a Rich Severson video.

I don't get the "heavy theory" advice given here. You can talk all day long about what it is and what it isn't, but jamming in D harmonic minor, (also F Major), a few passing tones, some blues scales, and then experimenting with C Major and A minor gave me a world of groovy SMOOTH JAZZ improv. Which is I believe what the OP was asking for.

Less thinking and more feeling! with some groovy great lines. Other video gurus tell you the same - make music!

[starjasmine]

I gotta agree with the "less is more" approach that some have proposed: just solo in Dm and use your ear. Any kind of Dm will do, as long as you resolve non-chord tones appropriately.

The whole progression is a Dm vamp with excursions to its dominant or subs for its dominant. You don't need to spell out every chord unless that is what you want to do. Sometimes its more interesting for your solo melody to contrast with the underlying chords rather than following them slavishly.

[rpjazzguitar]

erm ... no Bb?

ya'll Dm

I thought about it. I left it out because I figured that a B natural would make it a b9#11 which might not suck horribly. The bass would still have Bb. But if you think that I went too far in the direction of excessive simplicity, I wouldn't argue the point.

[pamosmusic]

Yall.

Dm.

Dm blues. Dm turnaround vocabulary.

Play the changes. It’s in Dm.

And I’ll never forgive you lot for making me play over this track.

[rpjazzguitar]

Another approach.

Play the backing track slowly.

For each chord, try all 12 notes of the chromatic scale. See which ones you like. Then put those notes into a scale finder (google it) and see what they're called.

You're likely, but not guaranteed, to get D dorian, Fmelmin (aka Bb lydian dominant), Gmixolydian and, I'm not sure about the A7#5. Maybe Dmelmin or a A whole tone or Amixob6.

Bear in mind that D dorian and Gmixolydian have the same notes, all white keys. Two flats for the Fmelmin and one sharp for Dmelmin.

This makes it seem harder than it is. Peter is right to call it Dm with some alterations to accommodate the exact voicings.

[pamosmusic]

I kind of think the only thing that makes it seem like Am is the banner on the video itself.

[starjasmine]

Ain't this horse dead yet?
Dm9 = D F A C E
Notice what the boldfaced notes (upper extensions) spell ...

I'm not saying that it makes sense to think of this in Am, but you could make it work, I guess. Consider that there is only one note that is different between A natural minor (C major no sharps/flats) and D natural minor (F maj only one flat Bb). Thus, it should be just as easy to "think in A minor" but the functional relationships in this progression all come from D minor, so I find it easier to analyze based on Dmi.

Not that everything on YT is correct Perhaps what is missing is a large grain of salt!

[Mick-7]

I kind of think the only thing that makes it seem like Am is the banner on the video itself.

It ends on G/A, preceded by E7#9, I think the author is thinking of that as V7-Im, as is Bb7#11 > G/A.

So it's: IVm > V7 > Im > V7 of IVm, etc.

[djg]

it's a II V I VI in C. Bb7 is the bVII replacing V, and G/A is Em7 standing in for the I chord.

[pamosmusic]

it's a II V I VI in C. Bb7 is the bVII replacing V, and G/A is Em7 standing in for the I chord.

i bVI IV V in Dm.

I feel like I’m through the looking glass.

[Joe Passé]

...

Seems like guys are making it so Theory complicated. The OP asked for a way to streamline (finding a common thread). Read his OP!

...

To be fair, the OP doesn't exactly know what he wants. Or perhaps the OP wants it all.

I do want to find the simplest way for me to try and navigate the changes and make some music. So in that sense I'm looking for shortcuts and simplifications.

But I also would like to know "what the pro's would do" as a goal and to direct my study. I suppose the pros would just play the melody in their head, but still some longer term goals for focus is helpful.

And finally I enjoy the theory and discussion of different approaches.

As an aside, do we need to definitively pick a key? Why not say it's 50% Dm, 35% Am, 10% C, and 5% G mixolydian? That's sort of a joke, but also not really.

[Joe Passé]

I gotta agree with the "less is more" approach that some have proposed: just solo in Dm and use your ear. Any kind of Dm will do, as long as you resolve non-chord tones appropriately.

The whole progression is a Dm vamp with excursions to its dominant or subs for its dominant. You don't need to spell out every chord unless that is what you want to do. Sometimes its more interesting for your solo melody to contrast with the underlying chords rather than following them slavishly.

That's basically what I tried. I found a lot of clunkers, made a big dish of clam chowder, and cleaning it up was slow so I figured I should back up and have a more analytical approach to figuring out what fits.

I think in the end both roads will lead to the same place, but figuring out the arpeggios and scales that would fit, learning them and then applying seems more efficient. It's a bit more how my thinking works.

[Joe Passé]

Yall.

Dm.

Dm blues. Dm turnaround vocabulary.

Play the changes. It’s in Dm.

And I’ll never forgive you lot for making me play over this track.

You may never forgive, but hopefully, with time, someday you'll forget.


Seriously, thanks. I know it's silky smooth jazz, which I actually sometimes enjoy, and other times is too saccharine, but it's primarily just a learning tool in this case.

[Peter C]

Kudos to pamosmusic for actually posting a short phone video; not difficult to do and far more illustrative than words/"theory"! Dm with a few mods seems to work well, though I hear an underlying melody based on a Cmaj7 arpeggio. We don't all have the same ears, fortunately.

[Joe Passé]

Maybe this text description from the video will help guide us:

"Silky Night" is a smooth jazz backing track that will make you feel like you're gliding through a luxurious evening. With its sultry saxophone melodies, mellow guitar riffs, and soothing piano chords, this instrumental is perfect for adding a touch of sophistication to your music. So sit back, relax, and let the silky smooth sounds take you on a musical journey. is good For guitar, piano,trumpet,sax,ukulele and many others...

[pamosmusic]

Maybe this text description from the video will help guide us:

I am 100% sure that everything about this video is AI generated.

[Christian Miller]

So aside form the blues scale,

the way I solo on this progression is I use the notes of

Dm7, Bb7, G and A+

And then when I get bored of those I might do some more upper extensioney things like maybe these triads

Am, C, Bm and Bbm

for example

[brent.h]

I kind of think the only thing that makes it seem like Am is the banner on the video itself.

Haha not for me. Really interesting how we're hearing things so differently.

When the Bb9#11 is played, I hear the Ab/G# quite prominently, so there's a part of my brain thinking, "Ok now resolve to A minor".

If the Bb chord wasn't played as a dominant, and if it was played as a Bb6 or Bb6 with a #11 (inversion of G-6), something like

X
5
7
5
X
6

then yes, absolutely, I will hear the entire progression as something in D minor.

I've heard this 'Blackadder Chord' used a bunch of time is Japanese music too, and it's always use one half step above a tonic major or tonic minor sound. So this also definitely affected the way I perceive Bb9#11 and ultimately the key of the progression.

[Christian Miller]

Haha not for me. Really interesting how we're hearing things so differently.

When the Bb9#11 is played, I hear the Ab/G# quite prominently, so there's a part of my brain thinking, "Ok now resolve to A minor".

If the Bb chord wasn't played as a dominant, and if it was played as a Bb6 or Bb6 with a #11 (inversion of G-6), something like

X
5
7
5
X
6

then yes, absolutely, I will hear the entire progression as something in D minor.

I've heard this 'Blackadder Chord' used a bunch of time is Japanese music too, and it's always use one half step above a tonic major or tonic minor sound. So this also definitely affected the way I perceive Bb9#11 and ultimately the key of the progression.

Good instincts. The Bb7#11 chord (called in classical theory the French Augmented 6th) came about as an alteration of the Gm6/Bb chord. The latter is found more frequently in Bach, though he uses both. The former, more omnipresent in the minor key harmony of Mozart's era.

It is understood to creating a half cadence to the V chord - A. However, in older times this was considered a Phrygian Cadence, which is to say, a cadence to a (usually temporary) modal I chord. In either case, as you say the Bb/G# suggests a strong resolution to the A chord. In fact the G# was used to intensify this effect.

In jazz, you get a bluesy vibe, because it has that tasty b5.