Improvising over Dm9 - Bb9#11 - G/A-A+7 progression?

[joe2758]

Can you turn up the backing and put on colored sunglasses please? That would be helpful

[Joe Passé]

I am 100% sure that everything about this video is AI generated.

Well that makes me sad. This is also listed on the youtube page:

keyboards: Diego Calcagno
Computer programming: Diego Calcagno
Percussion: Simone Talone
Wha guitar: Vincenzo Misale

[Christian Miller]

Peter suffered so it's my turn (and yours)

It is apparently obligatory that a red 335 must be played on this track. If you don't have one, move on.

[pamosmusic]

Good instincts. The Bb7#11 chord (called in classical theory the French Augmented 6th) came about as an alteration of the Gm6/Bb chord. The latter is found more frequently in Bach, though he uses both. The former, more omnipresent in the minor key harmony of Mozart's era.

In jazz, you get a bluesy vibe, because it has that tasty b5.

Does it have the b5 … b5 in Am would be Eb …

b5 in Dm would be Ab

[Joe Passé]

Peter suffered so it's my turn (and yours)

It is apparently obligatory that a red 335 must be played on this track. If you don't have one, move on.

That was helpful. I think what makes your lumpy pentatonics sound so good is you know all the underlying arpeggios and chord tones so it's easy for you to hit them. You are coming from a place of deeper knowledge and simplifying, versus someone like me playing blues pentatonic licks over this progression, and "hunting and pecking" for choice notes.

[Christian Miller]

That was helpful. I think what makes your lumpy pentatonics sound so good is you know all the underlying arpeggios and chord tones so it's easy for you to hit them. You are coming from a place of deeper knowledge and simplifying, versus someone like me playing blues pentatonic licks over this progression, and "hunting and pecking" for choice notes.

thanks - yes it is important. The basic thing to note is I'm not really thinking theoretically - that's too slow and unmusical to work - I'm hearing. I can hear what the b5 sounds like in my head, for instance.

You have to hear what you are playing, and play what you hear. This is a skill that is well honed through listening closely to your favourite players and copying them. You can also take certain notes and listen to them on different chords.

[Christian Miller]

Does it have the b5 … b5 in Am would be Eb …

b5 in Dm would be Ab

Yeah, sorry the central key's b5. In the key of the destination chord (A) this would be the leading note (7). and that's how it functioned traditionally (aug 6th). However, people got into moving it down a half step in the Romantic era... So you might get Bb7 going to A7 with a chromatic Ab-G in the voice leading. Wagner does this for instance. I'm sure there are earlier examples.

And of it's de rigeur in jazz because blues.

[pamosmusic]

Yeah, sorry the central key's b5. In the key of the destination chord (A) this would be the leading note (7). and that's how it functioned traditionally (aug 6th). However, people got into moving it down a half step in the Romantic era... So you might get Bb7 going to A7 with a chromatic Ab-G in the voice leading. Wagner does this for instance. I'm sure there are earlier examples.

And of its de rigeur in jazz because blues.

Right that’s what I was saying. If it’s in Dm then it’s ye olde French 6.

If it’s Am, like Brent was saying, then it’s something else. I’m not smart enough to remember what, so I’ll leave that bit to you.

[pamosmusic]

Peter suffered so it's my turn (and yours)

It is apparently obligatory that a red 335 must be played on this track. If you don't have one, move on.

SUFFERING

and don’t get used to it. I play exactly one guitar, but my black tele is at the spa right now.

[djg]

i bVI IV V in Dm.

I feel like I’m through the looking glass.

but in Dm the bVI would be Bbmaj, IV would be Gm. in C (or Am if you must) all chords in the progression are diatonic. this is how i hear it. forgive th lousy clip, i just got covid for the first time...

[pamosmusic]

but in Dm the bVI would be Bbmaj, IV would be Gm. in C (or Am if you must) all chords in the progression are diatonic. this is how i hear it. forgive th lousy clip, i just got covid for the first time...

Oh shucks Hope you’re okay.

And sure, but aren’t Bb7 and G7 or Bm7b5 or whatever pretty darned common in Dm?

[djg]

Oh shucks Hope you’re okay.

And sure, but aren’t Bb7 and G7 or Bm7b5 or whatever pretty darned common in Dm?

you could always pull a reg and call it modal interchange. but i dont hear it. to my ears bar three is the tonic.

thanks for asking. i'm ok. brain fog and a sour throat is all. knock on wood.

[brent.h]

here's me.

OP i've included some captions to describe what's going on.

[Dean_G]

it's a II V I VI in C. Bb7 is the bVII replacing V, and G/A is Em7 standing in for the I chord.

Thank you.I wish I could have been so succinct as your explanation.

[Christian Miller]

Right that’s what I was saying. If it’s in Dm then it’s ye olde French 6.

If it’s Am, like Brent was saying, then it’s something else. I’m not smart enough to remember what, so I’ll leave that bit to you.

It's kind of both?

The French 6th is derived from the tenor cadence on the Phrygian mode, e..g Gm6/Bb A. In the Renaissance era this was considered to be a perfectly legitimate final cadence. Take the last few bars of I Saw My Lady Weep by Dowland, for example. It's used as the final cadence in a slow baroque movement often, so it has a quasi-tonic function even then.

Somewhat later it became interpreted as a half cadence in the minor key. Here's a musicology phd thesis on the subject, because I know you want one:
How the Phrygian Final Lost Its Finality - ProQuest

So we are viewing the A here as a temporary tonic. Of course the A then goes to a V7 function and moves back to the Dm, so we tend to see such things as secondary dominants in modern harmonic theory. But Brett's way of hearing it is totally valid on a local level.

It even references Japanese folk music - which is interesting. The boi Brett has good ears.

------ SOME EVEN MORE IRRELEVANT STUFF THAT NO-ONE ASKED FOR -----

My boi Bahms though - being a massive Renaissance music nerd, nods at this origin in his theme for the 4th Symphony finale. This has a French sixth going to the E major. But that E major is unquestionably the key centre here. The melody then becomes the bass line for a set of variations that are definitely in Em - writing a set of bassline variations (chaconne) itself a strikingly antiquarian move for a Romantic symphony. Notice that leap in the top voice (bassizans) mains the downward step in the bass (tenorizans). It's upside down, in a sense. Classic composer skullduggery.



That's a lot of cultural baggage for a YouTube smooth jazz backing track lol.

[Joe Passé]

but in Dm the bVI would be Bbmaj, IV would be Gm. in C (or Am if you must) all chords in the progression are diatonic. this is how i hear it. forgive th lousy clip, i just got covid for the first time...

Can you explain why you say all the chords are diatonic to C? There's a Bb9#4 with a Bb and an Ab, and A7#5 with a C# (and maybe E#)?

[djg]

Can you explain why you say all the chords are diatonic to C? There's a Bb9#4 with a Bb and an Ab, and A7#5 with a C# (and maybe E#)?

we can expand a tonality with secondary dominants and/or chords borrowed from related keys. these chords are so frequently used that they are considered by most jazz musicians as diatonic. Bb7 is an Fm in disguise. the Fm in C is called IVm, a chord borrowed from Cm. it still serves the same function in Cmaj and is considered diatonic in C. A7 is an altered VI. it makes the Am-Dm weak move a strong A7-Dm7 move. strong moves help the listener due to the power of the dominant. most would hesitate to call it a modulation to Dm. so A7 is still a diatonic chord in C in my world. it#s mostly semantics but the concept of extended tonalities and secondary dominants is an important one.

[BreckerFan]

I don't think it's in Dm, I also don't think it's in Am. It's definitely not in C.

I think it's resolving to the Asus. Kind of like how the last part of Spain is a ii V to a Bsus and then B7. Half the time the progression is Dm Bb7 Asus, but it's also doing Dm E7 Asus. Pretty strong dominant resolution to the A. The A7alt turns back around to the Dm. I wouldn't equate the Asus with Am though. You can play some Am stuff over it but it's stronger to emphasize the sus and then the major third on the altered.

Simple way to play it, start with arpeggios and get the voice leading clear, then fill in with scales. So Dm7, Bb7/E7, Asus, A7#5 arpeggios. Then fill in with D dorian/pentatonic, E altered (same as Bb lydian dominant), Asus/E min pentatonic, A altered.

[Joe Passé]

we can expand a tonality with secondary dominants and/or chords borrowed from related keys. these chords are so frequently used that they are considered by most jazz musicians as diatonic. Bb7 is an Fm in disguise. the Fm in C is called IVm, a chord borrowed from Cm. it still serves the same function in Cmaj and is considered diatonic in C. A7 is an altered VI. it makes the Am-Dm weak move a strong A7-Dm7 move. strong moves help the listener due to the power of the dominant. most would hesitate to call it a modulation to Dm. so A7 is still a diatonic chord in C in my world. it#s mostly semantics but the concept of extended tonalities and secondary dominants is an important one.

Thanks, I'll need to think about that. I was sort of looking at the Bb7 as a substitution for E7 leading back to an A chord.

[djg]

Thanks, I'll need to think about that. I was sort of looking at the Bb7 as a substitution for E7 leading back to an A chord.

that is the same in my world. as i said to my ears the tonic is in bar 3, the so-called G/A. i think in functions and dont trust chord names that i havent made up myself. when playing over it i dont care if you call it G, Em, Am or C. all these can stand in for the I chord. i would hesitate to call Asus. to me that would imply that the D note wants to move. to my ears it doesnt.

[Christian Miller]

I don't think it's in Dm, I also don't think it's in Am. It's definitely not in C.

I think it's resolving to the Asus. Kind of like how the last part of Spain is a ii V to a Bsus and then B7. Half the time the progression is Dm Bb7 Asus, but it's also doing Dm E7 Asus. Pretty strong dominant resolution to the A. The A7alt turns back around to the Dm. I wouldn't equate the Asus with Am though. You can play some Am stuff over it but it's stronger to emphasize the sus and then the major third on the altered.

Simple way to play it, start with arpeggios and get the voice leading clear, then fill in with scales. So Dm7, Bb7/E7, Asus, A7#5 arpeggios. Then fill in with D dorian/pentatonic, E altered (same as Bb lydian dominant), Asus/E min pentatonic, A altered.

TBF it's often a bit difficult to establish a key from a cyclic progression. The progression starts on Dm but doesn't end on it. OTOH it's a bit daft to demand to hear the final chord before deciding. For the soloist, the final chord doesn't matter.

From a conventional perspective it's pretty clearly in Dm. The most usual chord here is G/A, but suggests a D dorian or perhaps D melodic minor modality which is obviously squarely within D minor (after all Dm7 G7 vamps are not unusual in modern music). (I chose to be a wierdo and play the G/A as Gmaj7/A - which does not belong to Dm, but could be seen as a borrowing from D major.)

But the progression is clearly closely related to the Dm (Am/C) Bb7#11 A7 progression which is several hundred years old and itself a close relative of the Andalusian cadence. So you could say A Phrygian I suppose? Like the Andalusian cadence?

Sure, why not? It's funny, modern classical theory talks about keys, but the whole idea of key and key signatures is quite a modern idea. In Mozart's time they were writing A major with two sharps, and defining the tonality in terms of Guidonian hexachords.

All that said, I would say Spain on the other hand is very clearly in B minor. The melody of one thing, and we do quite clearly end up in Bm towards the end, with the B7 setting us up for another pass. (The last bar or two of tune generally acts as a pick up beginning of the form in jazz.) Obviously there is a strong F# Phrygian influence in the tune, because, well.. Spain.

Interestingly I've come to the conclusion that the understanding of the key may not matter much for actually playing tunes. Some people regard what I'd call a secondary dominant as a true modulation, of instance. They'd say Just Friends starts in C major and moves to G major, whereas I'd say it's all in G major. What difference does it make on a playing level? Not much TBH.

Mostly it's labelling. I still have to check on things like Just Friends by saying "G major, first chord Cmajor7'. Not all players understand key in the same way.... You might say the prog isn't in Dm, but your actual pitch choices above are similar to mine.

[BreckerFan]

From a conventional perspective it's pretty clearly in Dm. The most usual chord here is G/A, but suggests a D dorian or perhaps D melodic minor modality which is obviously squarely within D minor (after all Dm7 G7 vamps are not unusual in modern music). (I chose to be a wierdo and play the G/A as Gmaj7/A - which does not belong to Dm, but could be seen as a borrowing from D major.)

But the progression is clearly closely related to the Dm (Am/C) Bb7#11 A7 progression which is several hundred years old, and clearly understood to be in D minor - and itself a close relative of the Andalusian cadence.

You could say A Phrygian I suppose? Like the Andalusian cadence?

Spain on the other hand is very clearly in B minor. Another quite functional chord progression (aside that cheeky jump from F#7 to E-7), but actually, you can just tell from the melody. The B7 at the end is a secondary dominant which then unexpectedly resolves to Gmaj7 to the Gmaj7 rather than the expected Bm. (An evaded cadence.)

Interestingly I've come to the conclusion that the understanding of the key may not matter much for actually playing tunes. Some people regard what I'd call a secondary dominant as a true modulation, of instance. They'd say Just Friends starts in C major and moves to G major, whereas I'd say it's all in G major. What difference does it make on a playing level? Not much TBH.

Mostly it's labelling. I still have to check on things like Just Friends by saying "G major, first chord Cmajor7'. Not all players understand key in the same way.... But your actual pitch choices above are similar to mine.

I mean sure Dm Bb7 A7 is a very common chord progression, but so is Dm E7 A (of some variety). There are two features I think that make it not sound like Dm is home. The first is the sequence of the chords. It starts on Dm and resolves to A in bar 3. Chord progressions that use the bVI V I thing don't really do that, if anything they start on the bVI and go to the I in bar 3 (off the top of my head, What you won't do for love or blue in green (with caveats that the first chord is actually G min blah blah)). The second is subbing the E7 for the Bb7 (or vice versa). That's quite clearly tonicizing the A, but it's a little strange for something in Dm.

[pamosmusic]

I mean sure Dm Bb7 A7 is a very common chord progression, but so is Dm E7 A (of some variety). There are two features I think that make it not sound like Dm is home. The first is the sequence of the chords. It starts on Dm and resolves to A in bar 3. Chord progressions that use the bVI V I thing don't really do that, if anything they start on the bVI and go to the I in bar 3 (off the top of my head, What you won't do for love or blue in green (with caveats that the first chord is actually G min blah blah)). The second is subbing the E7 for the Bb7 (or vice versa). That's quite clearly tonicizing the A, but it's a little strange for something in Dm.

Turnaround in Dm?

[BreckerFan]

Turnaround in Dm?

Yeah I guess using the II7 for a D minor turnaround isn't that weird, so it's really just one thing, the sequence of chords. Starting the progression on D minor, dominant in bar 2, and then the A in bars 3 and 4 really sounds to me like A is home.

[pamosmusic]

Yeah I guess using the II7 for a D minor turnaround isn't that weird, so it's really just one thing, the sequence of chords. Starting the progression on D minor, dominant in bar 2, and then the A in bars 3 and 4 really sounds to me like A is home.

I mean … a standard Dm turnaround would be:

Dm Bm7b5 Bb7 A7

So really it’s just a switch between the middle chords and that A in the bass.

G7#11 is also a pretty common subdominant in that context