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That was helpful. I think what makes your lumpy pentatonics sound so good is you know all the underlying arpeggios and chord tones so it's easy for you to hit them. You are coming from a place of deeper knowledge and simplifying, versus someone like me playing blues pentatonic licks over this progression, and "hunting and pecking" for choice notes.
Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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12-04-2025 09:28 AM
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thanks - yes it is important. The basic thing to note is I'm not really thinking theoretically - that's too slow and unmusical to work - I'm hearing. I can hear what the b5 sounds like in my head, for instance. Originally Posted by Joe Passé
You have to hear what you are playing, and play what you hear. This is a skill that is well honed through listening closely to your favourite players and copying them. You can also take certain notes and listen to them on different chords.
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Yeah, sorry the central key's b5. In the key of the destination chord (A) this would be the leading note (7). and that's how it functioned traditionally (aug 6th). However, people got into moving it down a half step in the Romantic era... So you might get Bb7 going to A7 with a chromatic Ab-G in the voice leading. Wagner does this for instance. I'm sure there are earlier examples. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
And of it's de rigeur in jazz because blues.
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Right that’s what I was saying. If it’s in Dm then it’s ye olde French 6. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
If it’s Am, like Brent was saying, then it’s something else. I’m not smart enough to remember what, so I’ll leave that bit to you.
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SUFFERING Originally Posted by Christian Miller
and don’t get used to it. I play exactly one guitar, but my black tele is at the spa right now.
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but in Dm the bVI would be Bbmaj, IV would be Gm. in C (or Am if you must) all chords in the progression are diatonic. this is how i hear it. forgive th lousy clip, i just got covid for the first time... Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Oh shucks Hope you’re okay. Originally Posted by djg
And sure, but aren’t Bb7 and G7 or Bm7b5 or whatever pretty darned common in Dm?
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you could always pull a reg and call it modal interchange. but i dont hear it. to my ears bar three is the tonic. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
thanks for asking. i'm ok. brain fog and a sour throat is all. knock on wood.
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Thank you.I wish I could have been so succinct as your explanation. Originally Posted by djg
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It's kind of both? Originally Posted by pamosmusic
The French 6th is derived from the tenor cadence on the Phrygian mode, e..g Gm6/Bb A. In the Renaissance era this was considered to be a perfectly legitimate final cadence. Take the last few bars of I Saw My Lady Weep by Dowland, for example. It's used as the final cadence in a slow baroque movement often, so it has a quasi-tonic function even then.
Somewhat later it became interpreted as a half cadence in the minor key. Here's a musicology phd thesis on the subject, because I know you want one:
How the Phrygian Final Lost Its Finality - ProQuest
So we are viewing the A here as a temporary tonic. Of course the A then goes to a V7 function and moves back to the Dm, so we tend to see such things as secondary dominants in modern harmonic theory. But Brett's way of hearing it is totally valid on a local level.
It even references Japanese folk music - which is interesting. The boi Brett has good ears.
------ SOME EVEN MORE IRRELEVANT STUFF THAT NO-ONE ASKED FOR -----
My boi Bahms though - being a massive Renaissance music nerd, nods at this origin in his theme for the 4th Symphony finale. This has a French sixth going to the E major. But that E major is unquestionably the key centre here. The melody then becomes the bass line for a set of variations that are definitely in Em - writing a set of bassline variations (chaconne) itself a strikingly antiquarian move for a Romantic symphony. Notice that leap in the top voice (bassizans) mains the downward step in the bass (tenorizans). It's upside down, in a sense. Classic composer skullduggery.
That's a lot of cultural baggage for a YouTube smooth jazz backing track lol.Last edited by Christian Miller; 12-04-2025 at 12:22 PM.
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Can you explain why you say all the chords are diatonic to C? There's a Bb9#4 with a Bb and an Ab, and A7#5 with a C# (and maybe E#)? Originally Posted by djg
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we can expand a tonality with secondary dominants and/or chords borrowed from related keys. these chords are so frequently used that they are considered by most jazz musicians as diatonic. Bb7 is an Fm in disguise. the Fm in C is called IVm, a chord borrowed from Cm. it still serves the same function in Cmaj and is considered diatonic in C. A7 is an altered VI. it makes the Am-Dm weak move a strong A7-Dm7 move. strong moves help the listener due to the power of the dominant. most would hesitate to call it a modulation to Dm. so A7 is still a diatonic chord in C in my world. it#s mostly semantics but the concept of extended tonalities and secondary dominants is an important one. Originally Posted by Joe Passé
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I don't think it's in Dm, I also don't think it's in Am. It's definitely not in C.
I think it's resolving to the Asus. Kind of like how the last part of Spain is a ii V to a Bsus and then B7. Half the time the progression is Dm Bb7 Asus, but it's also doing Dm E7 Asus. Pretty strong dominant resolution to the A. The A7alt turns back around to the Dm. I wouldn't equate the Asus with Am though. You can play some Am stuff over it but it's stronger to emphasize the sus and then the major third on the altered.
Simple way to play it, start with arpeggios and get the voice leading clear, then fill in with scales. So Dm7, Bb7/E7, Asus, A7#5 arpeggios. Then fill in with D dorian/pentatonic, E altered (same as Bb lydian dominant), Asus/E min pentatonic, A altered.
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Thanks, I'll need to think about that. I was sort of looking at the Bb7 as a substitution for E7 leading back to an A chord. Originally Posted by djg
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that is the same in my world. as i said to my ears the tonic is in bar 3, the so-called G/A. i think in functions and dont trust chord names that i havent made up myself. when playing over it i dont care if you call it G, Em, Am or C. all these can stand in for the I chord. i would hesitate to call Asus. to me that would imply that the D note wants to move. to my ears it doesnt. Originally Posted by Joe Passé
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TBF it's often a bit difficult to establish a key from a cyclic progression. The progression starts on Dm but doesn't end on it. OTOH it's a bit daft to demand to hear the final chord before deciding. For the soloist, the final chord doesn't matter. Originally Posted by BreckerFan
From a conventional perspective it's pretty clearly in Dm. The most usual chord here is G/A, but suggests a D dorian or perhaps D melodic minor modality which is obviously squarely within D minor (after all Dm7 G7 vamps are not unusual in modern music). (I chose to be a wierdo and play the G/A as Gmaj7/A - which does not belong to Dm, but could be seen as a borrowing from D major.)
But the progression is clearly closely related to the Dm (Am/C) Bb7#11 A7 progression which is several hundred years old and itself a close relative of the Andalusian cadence. So you could say A Phrygian I suppose? Like the Andalusian cadence?
Sure, why not? It's funny, modern classical theory talks about keys, but the whole idea of key and key signatures is quite a modern idea. In Mozart's time they were writing A major with two sharps, and defining the tonality in terms of Guidonian hexachords.
All that said, I would say Spain on the other hand is very clearly in B minor. The melody of one thing, and we do quite clearly end up in Bm towards the end, with the B7 setting us up for another pass. (The last bar or two of tune generally acts as a pick up beginning of the form in jazz.) Obviously there is a strong F# Phrygian influence in the tune, because, well.. Spain.
Interestingly I've come to the conclusion that the understanding of the key may not matter much for actually playing tunes. Some people regard what I'd call a secondary dominant as a true modulation, of instance. They'd say Just Friends starts in C major and moves to G major, whereas I'd say it's all in G major. What difference does it make on a playing level? Not much TBH.
Mostly it's labelling. I still have to check on things like Just Friends by saying "G major, first chord Cmajor7'. Not all players understand key in the same way.... You might say the prog isn't in Dm, but your actual pitch choices above are similar to mine.Last edited by Christian Miller; 12-04-2025 at 01:13 PM.
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I mean sure Dm Bb7 A7 is a very common chord progression, but so is Dm E7 A (of some variety). There are two features I think that make it not sound like Dm is home. The first is the sequence of the chords. It starts on Dm and resolves to A in bar 3. Chord progressions that use the bVI V I thing don't really do that, if anything they start on the bVI and go to the I in bar 3 (off the top of my head, What you won't do for love or blue in green (with caveats that the first chord is actually G min blah blah)). The second is subbing the E7 for the Bb7 (or vice versa). That's quite clearly tonicizing the A, but it's a little strange for something in Dm. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Turnaround in Dm? Originally Posted by BreckerFan
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Yeah I guess using the II7 for a D minor turnaround isn't that weird, so it's really just one thing, the sequence of chords. Starting the progression on D minor, dominant in bar 2, and then the A in bars 3 and 4 really sounds to me like A is home. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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I mean … a standard Dm turnaround would be: Originally Posted by BreckerFan
Dm Bm7b5 Bb7 A7
So really it’s just a switch between the middle chords and that A in the bass.
G7#11 is also a pretty common subdominant in that context
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It's a variation of Dm Fm Em A7.
Start on a minor, move up a minor third, drop down a half step into a ii V.
That happens in standards.
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bar three is not even "Asus" for the whole bar. the A moves to G. i agree that bar 3 is home. Originally Posted by BreckerFan
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Right but that sequence makes a difference. Setting up the A in bar 2, sometimes with E7, and hanging on it for two bars sounds different than going through that standard turnaround cycle. Same with the A in the bass, G/A isn't a G chord, it's Asus. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
I think it's kind of ambiguous, in a way that a lot of R&B or neo soul progressions can be. I'm not saying it's "in" A, just that the two bars of A sound like where it's leading. As far as playing it, the difference is that I wouldn't be thinking D minor over the whole thing, I would emphasize A sus to A7. But that doesn't mean you can't achieve the same thing by thinking D minor.
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Holger (djg) is correct from the mainstream perspective. But then, the Germans invented this stuff haha ;-) Originally Posted by BreckerFan
What I'd say for non dogmatic position is that conventional (ie classical) music theory is not really designed to analyse music built on a four chord loops. As this cycle loops, so the heard tonal centre is ambiguous. I'm not saying you are wrong in your perceptions. There is a STRONG pull to A and the G/A is a relatively consonant chord. But there is also a pull to Dm at the top of the loop. Where do you hang your hat? It goes around and around.
That said, you should know that from a modern mainstream perspective, theorists would say it is in D minor. There's no reason to say it isn't.
I know jazzers think about II V I's all the time, but not all music in a given key has to finish on I. There are plenty of examples that don't.
My favourite is movement 2 of Bach's Brandenburg Concerto which is literally two chords - Am/C and B (the soloist is meant to improvise on them - I guess he was in a rush that day.) The music clearly indicates the key is E minor. We all this progression a half cadence in E minor. You might say B Phrygian (with a major third), and who knows, maybe Bach would have agreed.
Brandenburg Concerto No. 3 in G major, BWV 1048: 2. Adagio — Johann Sebastian Bach Sheet Music for Contrabass, Violin, Viola, Cello (String Ensemble) | MuseScore.com
The B7 sets up the next movement which starts up in G major. The E minor is never heard. Bit like Spain.
It's not at all strange and has been part of the Western musical lexicon since at least the 1700s, especially in a minor key.The second is subbing the E7 for the Bb7 (or vice versa). That's quite clearly tonicizing the A, but it's a little strange for something in Dm.
Augmented sixth chord - Wikipedia
In fact it was kind of the default thing to do on the bVI degree for 18th/19th century composers. It's no surprise we see it cropping up very often in the GASB canon and beyond.
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I think the weird thing is analyzing a neo soul progression using Bach, but you do you. I'm not thinking about it as classical music because it isn't. And sure, I don't really know academic classical theory, because that's not what I play.
Sure you can analyze the chords as belonging to D minor. Never said you can't. My point is the tension and resolution created by the structure of the chord progression feels like it's going to A, not D minor. And it's a chord loop, so the fact that after 5 minutes it ends on D minor doesn't really do anything for me. The actual musical situation you have when playing over it is this kind of ambiguous loop that's setting up and hanging on A. When you're playing over that, IMO you need to emphasize that.
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