Improvising over Dm9 - Bb9#11 - G/A-A+7 progression?

[ragman1]

I can NOT believe that I'm still posting to this thread :-/ but I hear the whole thing as Dm to A7.

• The various flavors of A7 (including A sus) are still A7, just some different colors or voice movement.
• E7 is V/V and Bb7 is its TT sub.

So I hear the whole shebang as tonic to various colors of dominant and back to tonic. Full stop.

BTW I don't hear the keys following this chart slavishly. I put in all of 20 seconds to analyze what is happening in the very last bar of the first time through: the keys play Am instead of just hanging statically on Asus. So there's your "modal interchange." :-) i.e. v in place of V.

Theory is a way to explain what the listener hears. What the listener hears is subjective.

Personally, I just play what's there. I don't feel any need to tear it to pieces or analyse it to death. What's the point? I didn't write it (actually I suspect it's AI at work but not necessarily) so I see no need to change it. It does make life a lot easier.

The first chord is Dm9. It's not a Dm7 with an F in there, it's Dm9 and that E at the top is prominent. So it sounds more like an FM7 than a straight D minor. So I'd pay attention to that sound. I mean, the whole idea is to be able to improvise over the chords, right? We're not writing an academic thesis or theory essay so I just play what it says. Am pentatonic fits perfectly over it.

The next chord is Bb9#11 although most guitar players would play it as a Bb7b5 shape: 6x675x. So, if you know your stuff, that would be a Bb Lydian Dominant or F melodic minor. Or perhaps a Bb wholetone scale.

The next one is G/A. That's a G maj sound, albeit with an A at the bottom. The bass note is diatonic to G, being the 9, so it makes little difference. If the bass note were something strange, like Ab, that's a different matter, but it's not. So be simple and use G maj or Em over it.

The next is A7+, which is short for A7#5 or b13. That's an altered A7 chord so play the A altered scale (Bb melodic minor) or maybe A wholetone.

That's the easiest way to do it. I know they're saying play Dm blues over everything but actually those notes don't fit every chord properly. It means you have to be very careful which notes of the Dm blues you use over what. Which means you're limited in what you can do.

I think we only analyse these things to death because we don't really know what to do with them. So we want the easiest way to go, blues and pentatonics. But that can get old pretty quickly and leave us wanting more ways to do it. So we should investigate more ways, expand our knowledge, and be much happier about it.

[Christian Miller]

If I ask myself - what would Jordan do? He’d do this probably

Dm9 - Amadd4
Bb9#11 - Caddb6
G/A - Gadd2
A7b13 - Faddb6

Which gives you the colours of the extensions


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[Clausstrom]

You should listen to his album. And to your own playing.

[ragman1]

What album? Link it.

There are 3 standards on Soundcloud but that was about 9 years ago. And I can't hear the triads stuff.

[ragman1]

You see, this is what happens when you point to an 'authority', like you can't find out for yourself. Authorities take away initiative and make for imitation.

I don't do authorities. Never have, thank god.

[Clausstrom]

Its called this city.

Jordan Klemons Album

Didnt take much initiative to find.

Next thing you're telling me you're self taught ?

[ragman1]

Thanks. I did google it but didn't get your impressive results. I'll have a listen. If I'm wrong then I'm wrong :-)

I didn't answer your thing about my own playing. First, I've never claimed to be a jazz guitarist. I just play the music as I know how. So, yes, I'm self-taught but that should be clarified. I didn't work it out in isolation, that would be near impossible. On the contrary, I looked at every conceivable source and most good sources agree with each other. In other words, it's what might be called generally accepted knowledge.

That's what I use and I don't even claim it's jazz. It's certainly not bebop. Unfortunately I don't 'hear' bebop so I can't really produce it. But I play jazz tunes and also make up my own. But I like what I do, I find it works for me. Whether others like it I don't know. Most jazzers don't seem to but each to their own.

I've never liked the triads idea, not by themselves anyway. I actually use them here and there but not much. But the inference is, as far as I can make out, that one can get through a whole tune using the triad + another note. It's not certain which triad one should be using, nor which other note. But the feeling I get from it is one of restriction. I don't like being limited to four notes. it's too narrow. I prefer scales from which notes can be taken to make lines.

Hope that answers something. So now I'll investigate Jordan's albums

[ragman1]

Ah, I don't do Facebook. Not a good start.

[ragman1]

Neither did this one.



Keeps going...

[ragman1]

Ah! 'This City' is on Spotify. Listening now. Dated 2017. Was that before or after he started with the triads idea?

[ragman1]

I've listened. No comment. Sorry, it's a sound-wash. Was the guitar going through a synth? Something like that. Perhaps others will like it more.

His playing on Soundcloud was far more impressive. There was some very good guitar there. Mind you, it was all dated 9-12 years ago. And I'm still not a fan of this triads stuff.

Since Christian suggested it, perhaps he'd like to dash off a chorus or two and show us how it works. It's not a challenge, it's a request for interest's sake.

I strongly suspect the OP would like to hear it too.

[Clausstrom]

The "triads stuff" is in my understanding (and I've taken lessons from Jordan) not to be understood as playing a triad+one note exclusively. You connect it all with scale notes, sometimes other extensions or triad pairs, embellishments and chromatic enclosures. So you can't really necessarily hear the approach as "the triad" thing, but rather its a framework for using extensions and using certain colours of chords.

Personally I LOVE G+4 on Am(Am11/9), F+b6 on A7(A7#9b13) and Eb+#4 on A7(A7b9#11). If someone told to just play "altered scale" it would never amount to the same!

This question may be inappropriate and I apologize for asking, but are you on the spectrum?

[Christian Miller]

The "triads stuff" is in my understanding (and I've taken lessons from Jordan) not to be understood as playing a triad+one note exclusively. You connect it all with scale notes, sometimes other extensions or triad pairs, embellishments and chromatic enclosures. So you can't really necessarily hear the approach as "the triad" thing, but rather its a framework for using extensions and using certain colours of chords.

Personally I LOVE G+4 on Am(Am11/9), F+b6 on A7(A7#9b13) and Eb+#4 on A7(A7b9#11). If someone told to just play "altered scale" it would never amount to the same!

This question may be inappropriate and I apologize for asking, but are you on the spectrum?

No he’s just rude. I know plenty of people on the spectrum who manage not to be.

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[Christian Miller]

I've listened. No comment. Sorry, it's a sound-wash. Was the guitar going through a synth? Something like that. Perhaps others will like it more.

His playing on Soundcloud was far more impressive. There was some very good guitar there. Mind you, it was all dated 9-12 years ago. And I'm still not a fan of this triads stuff.

Since Christian suggested it, perhaps he'd like to dash off a chorus or two and show us how it works. It's not a challenge, it's a request for interest's sake.

I strongly suspect the OP would like to hear it too.

TBH I'm not sure it would help you.

[ragman1]

The "triads stuff" is in my understanding (and I've taken lessons from Jordan) not to be understood as playing a triad+one note exclusively. You connect it all with scale notes, sometimes other extensions or triad pairs, embellishments and chromatic enclosures. So you can't really necessarily hear the approach as "the triad" thing, but rather its a framework for using extensions and using certain colours of chords.

Yes, I know, I've seen all this before.

Personally I LOVE G+4 on Am(Am11/9), F+b6 on A7(A7#9b13) and Eb+#4 on A7(A7b9#11). If someone told to just play "altered scale" it would never amount to the same!

So demo it. I've done my demo a few posts back. If you won't do it for me, do it for Joe Passé, the OP. It's his thread, his question here.

are you on the spectrum?

Possibly, but I don't think so. I'm more psychopathic :-)

[ragman1]

TBH I'm not sure it would help you.

You're absolutely right, not that I was looking for help.

So same request. Forget me, do it for the OP. He's probably quite new to it.

[pamosmusic]

Please stop

[ragman1]

Ok. Well, here's a good one. You'll love this :-)

[pamosmusic]

By this point, you have to know I’m not listening to your posts?

[Clausstrom]

You're absolutely right, not that I was looking for help.

So same request. Forget me, do it for the OP. He's probably quite new to it.

Only because you asked so nicely. Mainly Am/4, C/b6, G/4 and Bbm/2

[ragman1]

By this point, you have to know I’m not listening to your posts?

As you like, Pete. Free country, etc :-)

[ragman1]

Mainly Am/4, C/b6, G/4 and Bbm/2

Oh, well done. I liked a lot of that, there's some nice sounds in there. Thanks.

I think the point is we all have our preferred ways of doing things. It's what works for us and there's nothing wrong with that.

[pauln]

I was in a band doing things like this about ten years ago. This loop would be thought of as just an intro vamp into a relaxed tune that then moves on into more smooth progression development of the tune proper.

The foundation is simple...
Think of the bass hopping 1 "1" 5 5

i11
"I7sus2b5" (IIaug/7)
v11
V7#5 (Vaug/7)

If you lead the V7#5 as Vaug/7 into the i11 so that the progression shifts to " 5 1 1 5" like this

x 10 11 10 10 x | 10 z 10 9 8 x
x 5 6 5 5 x | 5 x 5 4 3 x

it's easy to see what's happening. After foundation you can add the Bb, Db, and Eb stuff

sparse
xx355x
xx655x
xx543x
xx566x

lush
(D)ii11 - F Lydian Augmented
(D)I9b5 - Bb Lydian Dominant
(A)v11 - C Lydian Augmented
(A)V7#5 - Eb Lydian Dominant

[ragman1]

(D)ii11 - F Lydian Augmented
(D)I9b5 - Bb Lydian Dominant
(A)v11 - C Lydian Augmented
(A)V7#5 - Eb Lydian Dominant

I'm all for different sounds. Can we just clarify this a bit? I'll use the chord names on the original loop.

(D)ii11 - F Lydian Augmented - Does that mean using D mel m over the Dm9?

(D)I9b5 - Bb Lydian Dominant - ----------------------------- F mel m over the Bb9#11?

(A)v11 - C Lydian Augmented - ----------------------------- A mel m over the G/A?

(A)V7#5 - Eb Lydian Dominant - ---------------------------- Bb mel m over the A7#5?


Or do you mean something completely different?

[pauln]

If those are the right modes of MM, yes; although to make them sound right I'm further displacing the assignment of the tonic down a tritone for what I'm calling Lyd Aug, so the "real" name may be once removed again... if so I'm sorry, I play by ear and try to name things after.