Modes on Blue Bossa

[BartLutsch]

Hey all!

I’m studying the modes on the guitar while playing blue bossa. I’m a bit confused though on how to see things.

So, Blue Bossa is a piece in Eb major or C minor.

The chords of the first part are: Cm7 | Cm7 | Fm7 | Fm7 | D-7b5 | G7 | C-7

So on the first part I could use C minor (or aeolian) or Eb major (Ionian) on everything. But that’s not the best way of tackling things.

Now it becomes confusing.

Say I change my mind’s eye with every chord change. We start on Cm7. So I could play C aeolian here. That would be a C major scale, with a flat 3rd, 6th and 7th.

For the Fm7 I do the same: F major with those three notes flatted. Which gives me Fminor of aeolian. But this F is the second degree of Eb major so that would make it Dorian. Do I have to use the dorian mode here now?

So the goal is to use the notes of Eb major on the Fm7 chord. Doing so, I can:

- play an Eb major scale and start on the second degree. (F dorian, not the best way)
- play an F major scale and lower three notes so it becomes F aeolian since we play over a Fm7 chord.
- play an F major with a flat 3 and 7 so it becomes F dorian.

Am I wrong to play aeolian over the Fm7? What do I play over the next chords? The G7 is calls for a phrygian dominant because of the major third in it. I understand this. But do I play Locrian on the D-7b5 then?

I feel like this is very complicated and I actually don’t know what makes it this complicated. Also, the switching between major and minor as a starting point feels strange, when they are actually just another mode.


Best wishes

Bart


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[James W]

A quick cursory response - theory and chord scale theory are not cut and dried matters. Ambiguity exists in these and in music in general, it's but part of its many-faceted charms and delights.

That being said, a minor 7 flat 5 chord does call for locrian or if you prefer, locrian sharp 2 (6th mode of the melodic minor).

[pamosmusic]

I think it’s worth pointing out that people generally do not approach chord changes this way.

That switching from chord to chord is cumbersome.

And generally when you see that happening for a standalone minor chord, particularly in that post bop 60s period, they’re going to go Dorian.

What I kind of think is more useful is to think about the chord and how it can change the center of gravity for a scale. Like if you’re going to play Eb major on those first two, try playing them like this:

Play Cm triad up and down
Add D and every time you get to C, skip it and play D first before resolving it down to C.
Get rid of D, and do the same thing with F, resolving it to Eb.
Get rid of F, and do the same thing with Ab.
Then try combinations of neighbor notes.

Do the same thing with Fm … G to F, Bb to Ab, D to C.

Do it with the other diatonic chords too. It’ll actually get in your ear the way the center of gravity can shift within the scale.

You can take one of those sounds (triad plus 2 or whatever) and take that through the tune. Check out Jordan Klemons for more on that stuff. His thing is pretty intense, but this is a good way to use it for what you’re working on here.

Starting modes and going root to root on them through a tune, in my experience, will get you nowhere fast. I really don’t know where it came from or why people with YouTube channels keep telling us to do it.

[djg]

I feel like this is very complicated and I actually don’t know what makes it this complicated.

here's the fundamental flaw: in jazz we do not improvise over chords. jazz is improvised over functions. everything else is just window dressing. you can nerd out over any chord or scale (and that is a good thing) but you cant dress your window if you dont have a house (function).

blue bossa: starts on a Cm7 a I chord in minor. you can play any minor sounds you like. forget the mode names and identify the intervals instead. aeolian is a b6 and a b7. learn to hear these notes. melodic minor is a 6 and a maj7. harmonic minor a b6 and maj7. etc. it doesnt matter if the I chord is Cm7 Cm(maj)7 Cm6 or Cm. you can play any minor combination. next chord is Fm7 the IV chord. it gets the same treatment as the Cm7. Dm7b5 is the II chord, use the IV chord as a sub and again play your Fm stuff over Dm7b5. for G7alt either keep doing that or play off the C harmonic minor scale to get you started. if you dont know what any of these terms mean or why we sub a IV chord for a II chord, or why harmonic minor exists in the first place, then find an answer to those questions. modes are for window-dressing. build your house first.

[rpjazzguitar]

The first chord is Cm. Suppose you like the sound of C D Eb F G Ab Bb C. That's C Aeolian. You might choose to emphasize the chord tones, C Eb G Bb.

Now, the chord changes to Fm. If you like the sound of F aeolian, all you're doing is changing the D to a Db. But, you may choose to emphasize the chord tones, which are F Ab C Eb, all of which are also in C aeolian.

One way to apply this is to come up with a short melodic statement that works over C aeolian. Then, play it over F aeolian -- and if it had a D, adjust it to Db. Or, don't bother, in which case it amounts to F dorian.

Just another way of thinking about. Start somewhere and then adjust whatever notes you have to adjust to avoid obvious clams. If your melody line is strong enough any note can work, but that's not where you start.

An aside. Harmonic, melodic, dorian and natural minor -- four separate names for minor scales which differ as follows. There's a 6 or b6, and there's a 7 or b7. Four possible combinations, corresponding with the four names.

So, for Cm you could have Ab or A, and, Bb or B. And, you could use three of them, or all of them. You try them all and decide which you like. Most often, you end up reinventing the theory. If you come up with something the theory doesn't predict, rejoice. You just found an element of your own sound.

[Christian Miller]

Hi Bart

So, I think there's a big chunk missing from most guitarist' upbringing is an understanding how to bring out the sound of chords their playing. This is important for any style of music actually, but in jazz it comes very much to a head.

As you say these chords largely belong to the C natural minor scale with the exception of G7. However, funny thing is the melody has a B flat on this chord...

So how do we make this sound of the chords? Well, a lot of this comes down to emphasis. If I emphasise the notes F and Ab, for example, I will sound like I am playing a D-7b5 or a F-7 more than a Cm7. If I play B and F I'll sound like I'm playing G7. So these are chord tones, and you should work on these a lot.

If you like, the modal approach is an extension of this principle. Now I build a different scale on each chord, using the chord tones and adding other notes to fill it out. The simplest is to use the key notes of the scale - C D Eb F G Ab Bb. So F-7 becomes F G Ab Bb C D Eb which happens to F dorian. D-7b5 becomes D Eb F G Ab Bb C or D locrian.

For the chord with the funny note, G7, you have the choice of replacing the Bb in the key with a B. G Ab B C D Eb F, for example, Mixo b9b13 or Phrygian Dominant or whatever. (You could also add the note into the scale alongside the Bb, which is quite jazz.)

Or you might prefer to think about chord within a prevailing key, which is the more traditional way of doing it. Certainly less names. For example, we would think of the G7 as belonging to the harmonic or melodic version of the C minor scale*. I'm a prevailing key guy FWIW. To me, it seems excessive to call each scale a different modal name. People vary though.

But the note choices work out the same.

Bear in mind this is just a discussion of the pitch choices. Bach's music uses this stuff, for example, and jazz guitarists have long used things like the violin partitas as single line harmonic studies. To actually sound like jazz you'll need to dig into jazz vocabulary, and especially, rhythm. But this stuff is well worth studying and will certainly support those other aspects.

One aspect of jazz chord scale theory is that you can build a different scales on the chords which aren't diatonic. For example it is common to use a G altered scale on the G7 chord, which creates a more complex sound. Or raise the Eb to an E on the D-7b5 chord to create a Locrian #2 sound. These all relate to extended versions of the basic chords. But that's a little further down the road, in my opinion. Get the conventional side of it down first.

There's other stuff too - like chord conversion and substitution (D-7b5 is F-6 and G7 can be swapped out for Db7, for example), but I'll leave it for now.

*These alterations are so common in Western music that the minor is considered to have three different basic versions by default.

[Christian Miller]

Oh, putting this stuff on the piano keyboard REALLY HELPS, even if you can't actually play piano. The notes are all in front of you.

[wolflen]

Hi Bart..

Well..they have done it again!..Modes that is..they have confused you..and they are supposed to..until you fully understand

the function of chords in diatonic harmony. This understanding includes the theory aspects of chord substitutions and other harmonic devices such as
the flat five and minor third approach and a bit more outside are the diminished and augmented alterations of basic dominant chords.

Note: There is no mention of "modes" in the above text!

The need to use modes can be partly in response to the internet/youtube etc. "how to improvise with modes" vids.

Many of these vids are aimed at a segment of players that want to play lines at mind melting speed-with exotic named scales..lydian dominant #9 -Wow!

This is not to say modes have no practical or useful value in jazz improvisation..they do. Knowing how and when to use them is key.

I feel that after a through understanding of the harmonic structure of a tune..focus should then aim at the melodic line and how it relates to the harmony.

In the case of Blue Bossa--Cmi harmony..the melody notes of the chord descend 5 4 b3 2 1 and this pattern repeats..study how the melody works with the chords.

There is also some flat five subs to study and how that works in the progression and of course the use of the melodic minor against the altered dominant.

After you have fully digested the harmonic/melodic aspects of this tune..arpeggios..melodic patterns..scales etc. The use of modal tools will make far more sense.

Now the use of the Melodic Minor scale against the altered dominant would be a good intro to begin experimenting with the modes of this very versatile scale.

[starjasmine]

I feel like this is very complicated and I actually don’t know what makes it this complicated. Also, the switching between major and minor as a starting point feels strange, when they are actually just another mode.

What makes it complicated is that you are looking at each chord as a separate entity, instead of seeing how they fit together.

Yes, BB is in C minor, but it's not just a random collection of chords in C minor. It's a set of progressions that go somewhere: the song form has a beginning, a middle, and an end - a structure.

Let's look at the melody first, since that's the difference between one song in C minor and another one. There are a lot of songs that share the same chord progression; the thing that differentiates one from another is the melody.

The melody of Blue Bossa - like the melody of many songs - consists of unique recognizable ideas that we will label as "phrases" in order to map out the overall structure of the song.

• Let's call the melody of the first four bars "phrase A".
• Notice that the melody of the next four bars is almost exactly the same melodic idea as phrase A, but transposed. So we could look at the structure of the first eight bars as A A
• The melody of next four bars is like we took the first two bars of A and changed the last two bars. So let's consider that phrase B.
• The melody of the last four bars is completely different than the other phrases, so lets call that phrase C.

A shorthand notation for this structure is AABC.

Each of these four-bar phrases could be further broken down as a two-bar "call" followed by a two-bar "answer".

• Aside from the pickup note on beat 4 that starts the melody, the "call" and "answer" parts of both A phrases are the same.
• Phrase B uses the same "call" as the A phrases, but substitutes a different "answer."
• Phrase C just repeats a variation on the "answer".

So we have a set of four-bar phrases, all of which share certain similarities. What makes this interesting instead of repetitious is the transpositions of the melody and the changes that those transpositions bring to the harmony.

The structure of the harmony follows the structure of the melody. Understanding that harmonic structure simplifies the process of improvising over the tune.

• The first four bars is two bars of C- followed by two bars of F-. These are the i and iv chords in the key of C natural minor (C Aeolian aka sixth mode of Eb major).
  You can simply play the whole section as C- (because the upper extensions of F- are C minor; consider F Ab C Eb G) or you could choose to emphasize the individual chords. Note that C Aeolian has an Ab in it, where as C Dorian does not, so C Dorian is not going to sound as good over F- as C Aeolian would in this particular situation. You could still use C Dorian if you avoid emphasizing A natural, treat it as a passing (non-chord) tone that your improvised melody resolves appropriately, or just avoid A natural entirely. Another way to get around all of this is to take an arpeggiated (chord tones only) approach.
• The next four bars are iim7b5 V i in C minor. Note that iim7b5 is the ii chord in C harmonic minor. The only difference between natural minor and harmonic minor is the seventh scale degree: C natural minor has a Bb; to make that into C harmonic minor, sharp that note to B natural. So really there's only ONE note different to remember....)
  So you could switch to C harmonic minor for that four bars. Again, you could take an arpeggiated approach and not worry about changing modes.
• The next four bars are ii V I in Db major.
  You could play Eb Dorian for two bars, resolving to Db Ionian for two bars. Or, again, you could emphasize chord tones: Eb-7 resolving to Eb-6 (the upper extensions of Ab9 contain Eb-6 : Ab C Eb Gb Bb) resolving to Db major.
• The last four bars are iim7b5 V i in C harmonic minor.
  Again, you could take a chord-tone approach or a scalar approach. Or mix them up. Whatever works for you.

You can simplify Blue Bossa or most any tune by understanding how its melody defines its form and how the harmony underpins those larger building blocks. In the case of Blue Bossa, there are really only a handful of ideas that get transposed and reharnonized a little bit. Your own solo can utilize this same approach: find an improvisational idea that you like, and then try to transpose it to reflect the progressions and key centers as they go by.

From a purely harmonic standpoint, there are only two big areas of emphasis: most of the song is in some form of C minor, except for the part that is in Db major. Keeping two key centers in mind is a lot easier than worrying about making 13 different chord changes!

When you become comfortable with changing key centers and modes on the fly, you can simplify this even more: C natural minor is the sixth (Aeolian) mode of Eb major, and Eb- is the second (Dorian) mode of Db major. So you could navigate improv over the whole tune by switching between Eb major and Eb minor, using your ear to pick "interesting" vs "avoid" notes.

HTH

SJ

[ragman1]

Now, look, you really don't need all this wiffly-wobbly theory stuff over a tune. It'll only mess with your head and your confidence. Why do you think there are so many jazz wannabes? Because they start out of their depth and stay there. Smart people start simple and get better.

Simplify the chords like this:

Cm - % - Fm - %
Dm7b5 - G7alt - Cm - %

Ebm - Ab7 - DbM7 - %
Dm7b5 - G7 - Cm - (t/a)

Is that difficult? Not really if you already know something about the guitar. If you're already stuck then you need to brush up your basics.

Then figure out what these chords mean. Obviously the tune's in C minor. All that first part is just C minor, right? The 1, the 4, and the minor 2-5-1.

And the next line is all Db major. That's also just a major 2-5-1, the thing they teach first (but maybe not in Db). Then it finishes in C minor again with a turnaround, like the blues.

Aside from the head, which you're supposed to know, what are you going to play? I'll tell you. You won't need a PhD.

Cm - % - Fm - %
Fm - Abm - Cm - %

Ebm - Am - DbM7 - (Cm)
Fm - Abm - Cm - (blues)

That's right, just Cm and Fm and a minor 2-5-1. I'm playing Fm over the Dm7b5 because that's what you're supposed to do and Abm over the G7 because that's the altered scale.

Then Ebm over Ebm and Am over Ab7 because that's the altered scale. Then DbM7. If you want to make it sound cooler add the Cm arpeggio and see what happens.

Then back into C minor. Put a little bluesy thing in at the end as a turnaround.

That's how to do it. Forget modes and scales and all that book stuff, leave that for the professors. All you need to know is where to find a C minor chord. And the others.

Play what you like over them. If it sounds good, it is. If it goes clang, don't play it.

I just did this. Take one, no edit. The acoustics are lousy tonight because of weather conditions outside but you'll still get the picture. Good luck with it.

By the way, you don't have to play the head exactly as on the sheet. Have some fun with it. Fun is good.

[starjasmine]

@ragman your answer is almost the same as mine; you just don't explain WHY any of it works. It's not "wibbly wobbly theory stuff". It's showing that this tune - and all others - can be broken down into basics that explain the details. Understanding the basics makes the details easier to remember.

[pamosmusic]

@ragman your answer is almost the same as mine; you just don't explain WHY any of it works. It's not "wibbly wobbly theory stuff". It's showing that this tune - and all others - can be broken down into basics that explain the details. Understanding the basics makes the details easier to remember.

It was “wiffly wobbly.”

Get your facts straight.

[garybaldy]

The next four bars are iim7b5 V i in C minor. Note that the b5 (Ab) is enharmonic to G#, which is the leading tone 7th in C harmonic minor. (The only difference between natural minor and harmonic minor is the seventh scale degree: C natural minor has a G natural; to make that into C harmonic minor, sharp that note to G#. So really there's only ONE note different to remember....)

The seventh degree of C harmonic minor scale is B or am I misunderstanding what you are saying?
Both C nat min and C harm min have an Ab but, whereas the C nat min has a Bb, C harm min has a B nat.

[starjasmine]

The seventh degree of C harmonic minor scale is B or am I misunderstanding what you are saying?
Both C nat min and C harm min have an Ab but, whereas the C nat min has a Bb, C harm min has a B nat.

Oops - brain fog! Thanks for keeping me honest. I've corrected the original post as follows:

Note that iim7b5 is the ii chord in C harmonic minor. The only difference between natural minor and harmonic minor is the seventh scale degree: C natural minor has a Bb; to make that into C harmonic minor, sharp that note to B natural.

[ragman1]

@ragman your answer is almost the same as mine; you just don't explain WHY any of it works.

When my washing machine breaks down I call the man, I don't go on a washing machine engineering course

[starjasmine]

I answered the OPs question about why this seems difficult. I didn't tell the OP or you how to approach improv. You seem intent on denigrating approaches other than your own.

And, BTW, when my washing machine broke down, I found a YT video that showed me how to fix it myself for the price of a $30 part, saving a minimum of $200 on a service call. But you do you.

[rpjazzguitar]

Hey all!


I feel like this is very complicated and I actually don’t know what makes it this complicated. Also, the switching between major and minor as a starting point feels strange, when they are actually just another mode.

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I'm going to go at this from another angle.

There is something called "tonal center". Think of it as the basic key or resolution point of all or part of a tune. I don't know how to define it more precisely.

But, the first part of Blue Bossa is in Cm tonal center, at least arguably. So, you can start, say, with C natural minor. If you prefer, you can adjust the 6s and 7s and make it some other minor scale or similar.

When you get to Fm, you're still in Cm tonal center. And all the notes of Fm7 are within the C natural minor scale. You just keep playing Cm tonal center.

Then when you get to Dm7b5, you're still in Cm tonal center and every note in that chord works. D F Ab C. Same for G7b9 (except you might want to adjust the Bb in the tonal center, to a B to accommodate the 3rd of G7. Yes, you could translate that statement into mode names, but consider the possibility that this is an easier way to get to the same place.

Now, you come to the Ebm7. That begins a ii V I in Db, which is Db major tonal center. Same thing. All three chords use notes from Dbmajor.

Now, if you just noodle the tonal centers it will work, but it will sound very vanilla. Next step up is to be aware of the chord tones for each chord. In effect, you give the chord tones more attention than the non-chord tones. By the time you get to Wayne Shorter, you might not choose to do that, but, right now, we're talking about Blue Bossa.

The theoretical abyss awaits you, but you don't have to have a different mode name for every chord to play Blue Bossa.

[garybaldy]

Oops - brain fog! Thanks for keeping me honest. I've corrected the original post as follows:

It's worth noting that during the Dm7b5 G7 Cm the melody does not use the B nat, it sticks to the Bb which acts as the #9 over the G7. I find myself using Galt scale in some shape or form over the Dm7b5 G7 often incorporating both the B nat and Bb.

[pamosmusic]

Bb7 solves all your problems on that one

[bako]

It's a good thing to collate the melody with the chords. Beyond that, people do many things but on a good day it will tell you everything that you need to know to establish a starting reference of note choice.



Blue Bossa sketch.pdf

[equenda]

Hi BartLutsch!

As we know, there are many systems for improvising in Jazz music. It must also be said that there is also a "NO-SYSTEM" that is used by many musicians, rarely good and more often mediocre.
In fact, I believe that if you do not have a personal way of organizing a solo, the result is too much left to chance.
Personally, I tried to improvise for many years using scales and modes but I did not like the result.
Then I tried to use arpeggios and chromatic approaches and I like the result a little more. In this video I talk about some of the possibilities we have for improvising on Blue Bossa. If you like the solo, you can download the free PDF with the complete 4-choruses solo transcription.
Ciao from Italy!

Ettore

[JazzPadd]

Konnichiwa from Japan! Thanks BartLutsch for the generative question, it's given rise to an interesting array of responses and approaches. I wish you all the best on your quest!

Around these parts, Blue Bossa is one of a handful a jam session "staple tunes" that get called to start or end a jam, or when there are newcomers participating. It's good to know.

Personally, I rarely think in terms of modes except perhaps (but no always) if the tune is a modal tune to begin with (Impressions leaps to mind), but not sure if Blue Bossa is that.

As an amateur player, beyond reading the kind advice of my seniors, I often listen to the recordings of a tune by those who have done it and ponder how they have approached it.

I agree that what matters in the end is developing an approach that works for you. My approach to Blue Bossa is in the melody variation / play the changes camp. But since I only really play this tune in live settings at jams, it also depends on who is on the stage and the dynamics created by the spontaneous group interactions and unpredictable skill levels of players. Although often played moderately, sometimes it gets called at a cooking tempo with an enthusiastic drummer and a very busy pianist that really pushes my limited technical proficiency to the edge. In that situation I'll rely on patterns and such. Beyond that, I suppose what links everything for me is the groove, so I often start with a simple phrase of a few notes more or less from the melody and use that to get into the groove with the group, make eye contact, etc. If I'm able to get comfortable, then I might start moving into more complex things, depending upon how I feel. This could indeed involve some of the techniques and tactics already mentioned here by others. That's the beauty of jazz I suppose, at least in a jam session context; it's a kind of social music that makes creative and liberal use of what Paul Berliner has called "the infinite art of improvisation."

Whatever you end up doing, keep listening, play jazz with others, and above all, have fun!

[Christian Miller]

I suppose tl;dr

It’s just chords in c minor

Practice is outlining different chords in the tune with chord tones

Join up chord tones with C minor notes

Then move on

[Christian Miller]

@ragman your answer is almost the same as mine; you just don't explain WHY any of it works. It's not "wibbly wobbly theory stuff". It's showing that this tune - and all others - can be broken down into basics that explain the details. Understanding the basics makes the details easier to remember.

Far be it from me to agree with Ragman but one of the biggest obstacles in teaching adult students to play jazz is the question ‘why?’ when actually what they need is to focus on the how and the what. But intelligent and naturally curious people tend to be drawn towards jazz guitar. And before know it it’s hour three of the lesson and we’re talking about Ancient Greece of something.

(I am also to blame.)

The why is musicology, academia, science. The what and the how is practical expertise which is what we actually need as players .

It’s not important to know why a II V I works, it’s much more important to know how to recognise one and have things one can play on it.

As with all things this is not black and white. A bit of “why” can be helpful when it links to practical skills.


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[ragman1]

hour three of the lesson

Blimey, I thought after twenty minutes everyone fell asleep

Not your lessons, I mean as a general attention span thing.