Modes on Blue Bossa

[pamosmusic]

Petey, I hope you and the teacher squad have given the jazz student the correct and comprehensive explanation of the topic of how to approach soloing (on blue bossa). Rather than everyone giving a self gratifying but incomplete and potentially misleading perspective. Because if not, I'm going to have to come in here and set everything straight. :P

Im a charlatan, for sure. Please … set it straight.

[starjasmine]

Christian and Tal (and probably others, not intending to disregard anyone) have made a good point, which might be summed up as "different strokes for different folks."

Christian and others made the good point that players with less theory knowlege and playing skill might benefit more from a "how-to" approach.

I came to jazz with playing skills already in place, so I'm very much an "I want to know why it works" sort of learner. Harmony and theory study gave me those answers, which is why my post talks about structure and harmony. That's what worked for me. It doesn't necessarily work for everyone.

We all want to help the OP by sharing what works for us, and the many approaches and opinions shared in this thread (and, frankly, every thread on JGO ) give the OP and others many choices, which is a good thing.

[Strat-itis]

I'm a charlatan, for sure. Please … set it straight.

Haha. I don't think you're a charlatan. I'm expecting to find good advice when I read the thread. I just think he needs a full explanation of the entirety of studying for soloing if you didn't already write it up. I couldn't earlier because I was on overnight security patrol so didn't have time. But I'll get after it when I wake up if he's still around.

[ragman1]

God almighty. One of the simplest tunes in the book and look at it.

[Strat-itis]

Well looks like our pal Bart didn't reply even once so I tried to just outline the topic but it ended up as more of a write up.

Hi sir. Jazz improvisation is not just sticking scales to each chord. However outlining the changes is part of it, but not all of it. It is kind of complicated to learn, but that's how it is as this is advanced music. Here is the list of things you must have under your belt:

1. Being able to generate vocab. You need to study vocab from other players as well as work on creating your own. Not just dicking around sticking a scale on each chord.
2. Tonal centers. You need to be able to identify the tonal centers of the tune to be able to fall back on or create vocab on the tonic. The tonal centers of this tune are C minor and Db major.
3. Outline the changes. A requirement in jazz is that you can outline or have your material follow many of the changes. You don't have to do it all the time and it's not required that you outline every change, but it is required that you do many of them or it will not sound like jazz. This is not only done with scales. You also use arps as well as intervals and chromatic devices.
4. Some of it is just expanding creatively and doing what you want.

About your question for what scale to use for each chord, there are not laws, but there are guidelines. Every chord does not have 1 specific scale that you must use on it, it's more important to identify the function of the chord, like djg said, and then fit your note approach based on that. C minor is the 1 chord and you have many options. Natural minor, melodic minor, pent, blues, etc. Dorian is used universally in jazz, but you don't have to always use it if you don't want. It's supposed to outline subdominant chords, but in jazz it's also used for tonic minors. F is the 4 chord but you can apply note ideas more or less the same as for C minor. D half dim, to G7, to C minor is a minor 2-5-1. The most basic thing you can play on it would be D locrian to G mixolydian to C minor. But you don't always have to outline every change. It's also taught that you can just outline the 5 over the 2 and 5. There are also many different scales you can use over this. Here is a video explaining many of the approaches for a minor 2 5.

Eb minor 7, to Ab7, to Db major is a 2-5-1 in Db major. I trust that you don't need an explanation of a major 2 5. Good luck. It would be polite to maybe check back in on the thread that you started.

[GuyBoden]

But usually thinking of the prevailing tonal center and the underlying chords will get you the actual right answer.

I'm in agreement with this method for all songs.

Learn to hear the tonal centres and the underlying chords.

[Christian Miller]

Christian and Tal (and probably others, not intending to disregard anyone) have made a good point, which might be summed up as "different strokes for different folks."

Christian and others made the good point that players with less theory knowlege and playing skill might benefit more from a "how-to" approach.

I came to jazz with playing skills already in place, so I'm very much an "I want to know why it works" sort of learner. Harmony and theory study gave me those answers, which is why my post talks about structure and harmony. That's what worked for me. It doesn't necessarily work for everyone.

We all want to help the OP by sharing what works for us, and the many approaches and opinions shared in this thread (and, frankly, every thread on JGO ) give the OP and others many choices, which is a good thing.

The point I thought I was trying to make is that everyone needs a how to approach. That’s non negotiable.

Theory knowledge (which means different things to different people lol) runs at right angles to that.

I see students whose theory knowledge is greater than their practical knowledge. Which means they are frustrated with their playing of course. But jazz guitar often gets taught in these theoretical terms, use x scale on chord y, and so on.

I mean I obviously know quite a bit of theory and it interests me. So I’m not down on it. But a lot of the gig of teaching adults is finding ways to get away from discussions of the whys and wherefores.


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[Strat-itis]

^ You're clinging to the fallacy that if base theory moronically applied =/= real music, then using descriptors by definition can't improve the process of teaching to make real music.

Average students won't fully pick up music intuitively. YOU HAVE TO TEACH THEM THEORETICALLY. You just apply it correctly, not in its base form. And use it in conjuntion with ear, technique, and creativity, not in exclusion to it.

[pamosmusic]

^ You're clinging to the fallacy that if base theory moronically applied =/= real music, then using descriptors by definition can't improve the process of teaching to make real music.

Average students won't fully pick up music intuitively. YOU HAVE TO TEACH THEM THEORETICALLY. You just apply it correctly, not in its base form. And use it in conjuntion with ear, technique, and creativity, not in exclusion to it.

You are not understanding what Christian is saying.

Hes saying you can teach people How (play your minor stuff off the fifth of those dominant chords) without teaching them Why (because it implies a Mixolydian 7sus sound).

Applying a label of any kind to it or orienting it in any way to the underlying harmony is theory, but that’s why he’s not saying “theory is dumb” and instead is saying that people can know how and not why and make good music. They can’t know why and not how and still make good music.

Also since this is all caps …

YOU HAVE TO TEACH THEM THEORETICALLY.

We can all assume you’re basing this on your experience with students?

[MinToyTot]

And of course every part of our knowledge & playing belongs to someone's theory of music, even if it's just our own personal one. Which is not to say that such a theory always corresponds with what is taught in academic institutions!

[Christian Miller]

I mean it is kind of a false dichotomy when you obviously have to label stuff to talk about something. To me saying something is a Db triad for example isn’t really theory, but to some it might be.

To me theory is saying, “the G altered scale parents the tritone sub.” Which is one possible answer to the question “why does the tritone sub work?”

It is possible to know this and not have mastered the tritone sub as a player so you can play in any key, tune etc, and it’s also possible to not know this and just play the tritone sub because you’ve learned it. Or both, or neither.

Otoh it may be useful to learn this fact at a some point further down the line in which case it has practical value.

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[Strat-itis]

@Petey. Ok. So yes you should nurture intuitive musicality. I would agree with that because the best musicians always have an intuitive grasp on it, that is often distinct from their theoretical knowledge. But they almost always have good or decent theoretical knowledge too. So it isn't to say that being fully descriptive in teaching is a bad idea, when in fact it's the most productive way. If you want to nurture intuitive musicality then great, do that. It doesn't mean you have to play disinformation games with the students.

No, I'm not a teacher. But I studied music in college. I'm also in Open Studio right now. So I probably am exposed to more music students and their natural aptitudes than even you are. If you play disinformation games with them to nurture their intuitive musicality, 9 or 10 out of 10 of them won't spring forth and start busting out Django lines.

[Strat-itis]

I mean it is kind of a false dichotomy when you obviously have to label stuff to talk about something. To me saying something is a Db triad for example isn’t really theory, but to some it might be.

You're purposely trying to label theory as 'not theory' so you can chalk up an argument for the intuition primacy camp. How in God's name is a chord name not theory? Anything describing the structure of music using language and not sound is theory.

[Christian Miller]

You're purposely trying to label theory as 'not theory' so you can chalk up an argument for the intuition primacy camp. How in God's name is a chord name not theory? Anything describing the structure of music using language and not sound is theory.

I don’t care what you call it, I’m trying to be clear about what I mean.

What I try to avoid is getting to caught up in the why stuff and focus on application. Call it what you like, I don’t mind.

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[pamosmusic]

No, I'm not a teacher. But I studied music in college. I'm also in Open Studio right now. So I probably am exposed to more music students and their natural aptitudes than even you are.

I'm going to print this out and put it on the wall above my desk.

[Strat-itis]

I'm happy for you. You are an excellent feud-r.

[Strat-itis]

I don’t care what you call it, I’m trying to be clear about what I mean.

What I try to avoid is getting to caught up in the why stuff and focus on application. Call it what you like, I don’t mind.

I understand your perspective.

I'm studying Milt as a beginning vibraphone student. Milt is blues and bop. BH teaching can really help with the bop part. But as much as I love Chris Parks, I wouldn't strictly follow BH prescriptive theory to the exclusion of natural Milt study. So I would absolutely prioritize a natural absorption of Milt's language.

However, I still summarize Milt's traits with descriptive theory to use to play intuitively. It's not so enormously complex that this is not possible and you can only learn it intuitively.

[AllanAllen]

If you play disinformation games with them to nurture their intuitive musicality, 9 or 10 out of 10 of them won't spring forth and start busting out Django lines.

There is no chance any of Peter's students busting out Django lines if they don't even know the blues form. Your argument is a mess, and you don't know what its like teaching kids.

[Strat-itis]

Your argument is a mess.

You'd probably want to support your argument if you're going to label my fully explained and largely substantiated one as 'a mess.'

[pamosmusic]

Teach a class full of high schoolers. Start explaining why something works and watch those goobers go to sleep.

[Christian Miller]

I understand your perspective.

I'm studying Milt as a beginning vibraphone student. Milt is blues and bop. BH teaching can really help with the bop part. But as much as I love Chris Parks, I wouldn't strictly follow BH prescriptive theory to the exclusion of natural Milt study. So I would absolutely prioritize a natural absorption of Milt's language.

However, I still summarize Milt's traits with descriptive theory to use to play intuitively. It's not so enormously complex that this is not possible and you can only learn it intuitively.

Most students aren’t ready for Barry esp on guitar. Most simply don’t have the command of scales and arpeggios etc. it asks a lot, and I think it is for the serious student who already play a bit or is willing to go all in for ten years. It’s a lot.

The most pressing thing is to make students into musicians - or at least put them in touch with their musicianship. That’s about the ears and their learning to use and trust their ears as a primary source of information.

[AllanAllen]

You'd probably want to support your argument if you're going to label my fully explained and largely substantiated one as 'a mess.'

I submitted an entire argument. A bunch of kids who don't know blues cannot in any fathomable circumstance, start playing Django lines. My source: existing in reality.

[Christian Miller]

Teach a class full of high schoolers. Start explaining why something works and watch those goobers go to sleep.

Good for them. If only us grown ups had the same good sense.


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[Strat-itis]

I submitted an entire argument. A bunch of kids who don't know blues cannot in any fathomable circumstance, start playing Django lines. My source: existing in reality.

It took me a while to get that you were criticizing my hyperbolic example. I guess, no they wouldn't. I still don't think it's more effective to teach manipulatively rather than fully rationally..

[Strat-itis]

Teach a class full of high schoolers. Start explaining why something works and watch those goobers go to sleep.

I honestly don't get where people with actual interests come from. When you deal with randos they never care about anything and are just foo of foos TikTok type of people.