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Yes, very. C minor scales - natural and melodic minor - will work over the entire progression (and C locrian minor, a.k.a. Db major, for the bridge), it's just a matter of which notes you emphasize. Learning to arpeggiate all the chords in real time will help you hear the changes and play the appropriate notes.
Originally Posted by BartLutsch
Last edited by Mick-7; 06-30-2025 at 12:17 PM.
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06-30-2025 03:28 AM
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Most people would agree that when you approach a tune you need to be able to:
- Map out an harmonic organization of the tune. (theory)
- Have real-time access to the note choices within that organization ie chord-scales, arpeggios etc (fretboard skills)
- Have a mastery of phrases in the jazz style and how they flow within the organization (melodic and rhythmic vocabulary).
When people suggest a particular approach to learning improvisation, they have an implicit pedagogical theory about what sorts of skills will emerge automatically from these activities. A lot of the time educational sources/suggestions focus on one of three and the implication may seem like if you get good at one of them, you'll get the other two for free. There may be some truth to that when it comes to vocabulary as fretboard skills and theory are baked into them. But even in that case, without a deliberate effort, I am not sure if one can have full access to the possibilities that the first two provides.
I'd say one needs to work on all three but it's a matter of priority and resource allocation mostly between fretboard skills and vocabulary as theory is much simpler. There is also a positive feedback loop among all three but that only unlocks if you work on all three.
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People do often talk about harmony and learning to improvise jazz as if they were the same subject.
The fact that they are not doesn't mean that it's not worth talking about harmonic technique.
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No one has mentioned the fact that 'Blue Bossa' is such an awful song, sorry but I will.
Gary Moore made a lot of money with his version of the song called 'Parisian Stairway'.
Edit: Maybe, but most probably, as a beginner 'Blue Bossa' is ruined by the constant C minor pentatonic Rock noodlers at the Jam sessions.
Last edited by GuyBoden; 06-30-2025 at 07:12 AM.
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It's so much easier playing a pentatonic scale over E, A snd B7 and non musicians can't tell the difference.
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Originally Posted by BartLutsch
There is no need to think of modes in tonal music. You rather need modes to play modal music.
You said it's a piece in Cmin (with short modulation to Dbmaj) It means it's in that tonality.
So you can play all over Cmin part using C harmonic minor scale and you can play all over modulated part using Db major scale.
Forget the modes and forget those scales too, play with focus on chord tones.
I hope it helps.
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Modes are the square peg everyone is hammering into round roles. Originally Posted by Tomcat
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Chord-scales are aids for phrase building. Criticisms of chord-scales and modes are a bit like a sculptor criticizing the use of clay by saying that when they put a lump of clay on the table it doesn't look like a sculpture.
Chord-scales and modes guide the lines more towards the underlying harmony by limiting note choices. Arpeggios are even more limiting therefore easier to use. But arpeggios are also tools to build lines with scales. But the more line building ideas you encounter, the more useful "chord-scales" get. I put chord-scales in quotes because I am not referring to any particular system.
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It's more like giving every scrape and scratch of sculpting an 8 part name and expecting the artist to have every potential moves definition memorized before they start to sculpt. It's just clay and a handful of scraping tools.
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I was referring to the common strawman criticism of chord-scales that they are not "music". They aren't meant to be music. The music is what you do with them.They represent one framework for developing an improvisational language based on harmony. They require working a lot on phase building. One can argue that there are simpler systems to use for phrase building. But the ones I am familiar with (Barry Harris, Joe Pass, Pat Martino, Gary Burton etc) are all based on some variations of chord scales. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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Is this true? Originally Posted by Tal_175
I remember when my first guitar teacher (who was not a jazz guy) told me that you play D Dorian over the ii, G Mixolydian over the V, and C Ionian over the I, which I’m sure he found in some thing somewhere online.
I came back the next week and was like .. aren’t those all the same thing?
Modes and chord scales don’t always get you closer to the underlying harmony. The answer will always be a chord scale if you want it to be. But usually thinking of the prevailing tonal center and the underlying chord will get you the actual right answer. (Or will reliably get you a sound you recognize, maybe is a better way of putting it).
When you use the chord scales as a starting point, you end up with a labyrinth of rules to help you choose the right one, and a bunch of exceptions to those rules, and a phrase that uses four scales when one will do.
I ABSOLUTELY think about chord scales a lot so I’m not knocking them. But I think they’re super useful for getting a full palette of colors to someone who already knows how to play changes. If someone is learning, they’re way more trouble than they’re worth
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There is a notion that chord-scales are alternative to understanding functional harmony and voice-leading in tonal contexts. I consider that another strawman argument against chord scales. In your example, mapping ii V I to Dorian, mixolydian and Ionian is shown as an introduction to the framework. If all jazz was diatonic chords, the chord-scale approach would've been superfluous. But in reality, say in your example, the students move on to exploring other dominant sounds in the context of ii-V-I, also perhaps ii-7b5 V7alt I major etc. or even simply tri-tone dominant. Only then the point of the framework become apparent. But the student must still understand and hear that not all the notes of a chord-scale are the same and they don't all move the same. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Hi!
It's strange (or maybe not...) that in this discussion (very interesting to me) we talk about modes, scales and chord-tones and nobody has suggested a very important element to start improvising: the original melody of the song BLUE BOSSA.
Unfortunately now it's very hot and I can't make recordings but my next video will be dedicated to a THEMATIC SOLO based on the Blue Bossa theme. I think that for those who are starting out it is very useful from a technical and musical point of view.
As the great Bruce Forman says: "Play the Song!"
Ettore
My website
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That's exactly what Kenny Dorham does on the original recording. Always a power move. Originally Posted by equenda
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Quibbles about nomenclature aside, I think to use chord scales effectively requires a foundation that most guitar players simply don't have. Even ones that know all the chord scale relationships.
Firstly the diatonic notes are not obviously identifiable on the instrument. You have to spend a lot of time learning them, and where the chord tones are. On piano, you can make these connections much more easily. Even someone like me who isn't a piano player. That's why they teach arrangers piano at places like Berklee of course.
Secondly, I think guitar players tend to grow up with modal harmony because that's how much rock is written. Think of Zeppelin, Maiden etc - bVI bVII I. Playing on the aeolian mode over a rock progression and so on and so forth. Today it seems like a lot of rock musicians compose from the perspective of modal harmony.
Whereas jazz is rooted in something more like classical harmony - not precisely the same because jazz has more of layered approach. But I kind of feel that you can't get there without an understanding what tonal harmony is in basic terms. And that's the sort of stuff you'd learn by studying common practice harmony.
There are exceptions - go and listen to Megadeth Tornado of Souls for example. They liked the old CESH progression as much as the GASB composers, but the idea of soloing on the chord tones like Marty Friedman is seen as 'advanced shenanigans' while its the basic bread and butter of jazz changes playing.
On the other hand I think many jazz theory books written by pianists almost seem to take this type of understanding as read and then dive into the cool stuff. I think it is more obvious on the piano - chord tones are easy to see in a way they aren't on guitar.
This can give a distorted picture of how jazz musicians actually play. For example, many books seem to suggest that playing three separate melodic minor modes on a minor II V I is the way to approach this progression. It can sound super hip of course, but it's also three separate scales for one progression. In fact 70-80% of the time, classic players are simply playing within the minor key and picking out the relevant chords within the song, most obviously I IV(/II) and V.
Which is where I would start.
This didn't really come up in any of the books or course I checked out. I found it out by checking out music. What does Grant Green or Charlie Parker do there? Oh, it's a plain old Bo7 into Cm type thing, harmonic minor. Maybe it's my haphazard upbringing but talking to other musicians I don't think I'm alone.
I kind of feel there's a need for a book about basic traditional major/minor harmony for jazz players, especially guitarists.
It comes down to the same thing - to play jazz you need to be able to define your harmonic and rhythmic space rather than simply laying what you are doing over something else.
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I really think the way to start on modes is with the Jordan Klemons Stefon Harris thing.
Triads and voiceleading. Add one note.
Take that note away and add a different.
It really gets the sound of the center of gravity in your ear without confusing the issue of chord scales in there. And at the end of the day (okay end of the year), you have what is essentially a chord scale.
And for guitar players it really leans into that visual tactile strength we have and away from those weaknesses Christian mentions that make the chord scales relationships trickier
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This is what I mean by 'layered tonality' and why you can't say 'yes, yes it's all Bach' (along with the blues). You see it in 20s and 30s Louis Armstrong stuff, decades before any modal theory had entered the chat. Dm on G7, Am on Fmaj7, that type of thing. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
But what does that come back to? Chord substitutions. Chord scales are emergent from chord substitutions probably by ear and muscle memory. You add in scale tones to make those simple triads sound more melodic.
Later, dweebs came and named these things from the root which meant that they ended up with a squillion different scales with fancy names.
Chord subs can be systematised into scales or functions, but you still have to learn the chord subs. You can know the altered scale theoretically, but you still have to practice making the tritone sub.
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Yes , you could write that book Mr Christian ! and make your fortune (joking) Originally Posted by Christian Miller
to quote you
“In fact 70-80% of the time, classic players are simply playing within the minor key and picking out the relevant chords within the song, most obviously I IV(/II) and V. “
bang on man
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Probably because there ain't much to it, it's essentially chord tones. Originally Posted by equenda
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We're talking about Blue Bossa by Kenny Dorham, right? Originally Posted by Mick-7
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Originally Posted by Mick-7
Yes, each phrase and every measure of the song starts and ends on a chord tone. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
First two bars is a Cm7 arpeggio (with passing tones), on to the third of Fm7 (Ab) in bar 3, and to the 5th of Bb7 (F) in bar 4.
The entire phrase is repeated down a whole step over Dm7b5/G7/Cm (still targeting chord tones). Then down a whole step once again in Db major. Ingenious yet boring.
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Yes. The Blue Bossa melody is 99% chord tones. Only important deviation is the Bb (A#, minor 9th) on the G7 chord. (see attached images). Originally Posted by Mick-7
Yes, each phrase and every measure of the song starts and ends on a chord tone.
First two bars is a Cm7 arpeggio (with passing tones), on to the third of Fm7 (Ab) in bar 3, and to the 5th of Bb7 (F) in bar 4.
The entire phrase is repeated down a whole step over Dm7b5/G7/Cm (still targeting chord tones). Then down a whole step once again in Db major. Ingenious yet boring.
Ettore
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Yeah sure they’re well placed but it’s scale runs. Originally Posted by Mick-7
Yes, each phrase and every measure of the song starts and ends on a chord tone.
First two bars is a Cm7 arpeggio (with passing tones), on to the third of Fm7 (Ab) in bar 3, and to the 5th of Bb7 (F) in bar 4.
The entire phrase is repeated down a whole step over Dm7b5/G7/Cm (still targeting chord tones). Then down a whole step once again in Db major. Ingenious yet boring.
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True, but most play an altered dominant chord (e.g., G7b9/#9) there so that may be a chord tone too - and the Ab over G7 in bar 14. Originally Posted by equenda
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Petey, I hope you and the teacher squad have given the jazz student the correct and comprehensive explanation of the topic of how to approach soloing (on blue bossa). Rather than everyone giving a self gratifying but incomplete and potentially misleading perspective. Because if not, I'm going to have to come in here and set everything straight. :P
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