Modes on Blue Bossa

[pamosmusic]

I dont think the general listening public has the ability to decipher a dedicated style or cares to do such.

Good for them.

[AllanAllen]

Good for them.

It must be nice to just listen to a song and enjoy it. It also must be nice to watch football all day Sunday, burn some hot dogs on the grill and call it a good day.

[ruger9]

It must be nice to just listen to a song and enjoy it. It also must be nice to watch football all day Sunday, burn some hot dogs on the grill and call it a good day.

I don't watch the NFL anymore, but yes that's a great Sunday. Especially if family is involved.

[Strat-itis]

It must be nice to just listen to a song and enjoy it. It also must be nice to watch football all day Sunday, burn some hot dogs on the grill and call it a good day.

Are you being cynical about the foos? :P

[rpjazzguitar]

If you know the tonal center is, say, C. And you know the notes of the chords diatonic to C, for example, Dm7, Em7, Fmaj7, G7 Am7 and Bm7b5 ...

Then, it seems to me, that thinking in modes won't help in this situation. You already know which notes to emphasize if you want a certain kind of vanilla sound. Or am I missing some advantage to thinking about modes?

And, then, when you come to a chord like E7, still in C tonal center, you can choose to raise the G to a G# and leave everything else the same.

I'd call that something like "adjusting a tonal center note to accommodate a chord with a different note", which is a big title for something as simple as playing a G# against E7. If you prefer, you can think A Harmonic Minor, if, for some reason, that seems easier.

If the next chord is A7, still within C tonal center, you can adjust the C to make it a C# and nail the chord tones. Another simple adjustment, but, if you prefer, you can think A mixo or fifth mode Dmelmin (depending on whether you want F vs F#).

Next chord could be D7. This time you have to adjust the F to F#. Dmixo if that helps.

I prefer thinking tonal center and chord tones.

[AllanAllen]

Are you being cynical about the foos? :P

No, I’m jealous of them.

[Cunamara]

The notes are the same in your example but sets of intervals they create are much different. Comparing C ionian with D dorian makes little sense. Rather compare C ionian with C dorian to hear the difference. So CDEFGAH vs CDEbFGABb

Except I am not going to play C Dorian over a ii-V-I progression in the key of C. Generally this is the sort of thing that people are trying to use modes for.

Let me repeat the purpose of modes: The point of modes is putting the chord tones on the strong beats, which improves the coherence of one's lines: C d E f G a B rhythmically emphasizes the chord tones of Cmaj7, D e F g A b C emphasizes the chord tones of Dmin7, etc.

Of course, if you're just running up the mode over the chord, you've got other issues in your playing to solve.

I remember Jimmy Bruno talking about modal jazz and specifically the tune So What. When he looked at that tune he thought "C." Then "C#." Then "back to C." Not "D Dorian, then Eb Dorian, then back to D Dorian."

[rpjazzguitar]

There's an aspect of this I've never gotten.

Think D dorian because it puts the notes of Dm7 on the strong beats? Sure it does, if you're playing the mode from D to C, in order, in one octave. But is that really helpful? Wouldn't it be better to know the notes of Dm7 and the rest of the notes in the tonal center, in no prescribed order?

I have the same reaction to the extra note in the bebop scale. Sure, it puts all the right things on the strong beats -- if you're just running the scale. But why would you want to do that?

[Mick-7]

There's an aspect of this I've never gotten.

Think D dorian because it puts the notes of Dm7 on the strong beats? Sure it does, if you're playing the mode from D to C, in order, in one octave. But is that really helpful? Wouldn't it be better to know the notes of Dm7 and the rest of the notes in the tonal center, in no prescribed order?

I have the same reaction to the extra note in the bebop scale. Sure, it puts all the right things on the strong beats -- if you're just running the scale. But why would you want to do that?

I've never thought of modes/scales as having a rhythmic basis like that, it's a chord/scale relationship: D dorian for Dm7, etc. Same thing with the "be-bop" scale.

[rpjazzguitar]

I've never thought of modes/scales as having a rhythmic basis like that, it's a chord/scale relationship: D dorian for Dm7, etc. Same thing with the "be-bop" scale.

My way of thinking is more like, Dm7 is D F A C. It occurs in the context of a tonal center, which, commonly, could be C, F, or Bb. So, I could think, "what is the function at present? Should I play D dorian, D phrygian or D aeolian?" And, then have to make a similar calculation for the next chord.

But, if I know the current tonal center and I know the chord tones, I'm already there.

Is this a work-around for pattern-based players who don't yet know the chord tones in the chords they use and where those notes are on the fretboard?

[Mick-7]

My way of thinking is more like, Dm7 is D F A C. It occurs in the context of a tonal center, which, commonly, could be C, F, or Bb. So, I could think, "what is the function at present? Should I play D dorian, D phrygian or D aeolian?" And, then have to make a similar calculation for the next chord.

But, if I know the current tonal center and I know the chord tones, I'm already there.

Is this a work-around for pattern-based players who don't yet know the chord tones in the chords they use and where those notes are on the fretboard?

I'm with you, the C major scale includes all its related modes, D dorian, F lydian etc., so no reason to consider them. I think the only practical application of it is on modal tunes that have no specific key center, each chord is a tonal center, so for example, the tonal center for Dm7 is D Dorian.

[pamosmusic]

My way of thinking is more like, Dm7 is D F A C. It occurs in the context of a tonal center, which, commonly, could be C, F, or Bb. So, I could think, "what is the function at present? Should I play D dorian, D phrygian or D aeolian?" And, then have to make a similar calculation for the next chord.

But, if I know the current tonal center and I know the chord tones, I'm already there.

Is this a work-around for pattern-based players who don't yet know the chord tones in the chords they use and where those notes are on the fretboard?

I think probably this is roughly how I do it too.

Modal stuff comes in maybe more if there’s a dominant chord where the pool of common and practical choices is a little larger.

[rpjazzguitar]

I think probably this is roughly how I do it too.

Modal stuff comes in maybe more if there’s a dominant chord where the pool of common and practical choices is a little larger.

For dominants, I still know the chord tones and the tonal center. But there are more, useful, non-diatonic extensions, commonly. So, I just think about the chord name. G7b9? Start with the tonal center and add an Ab. G7#11? Raise the C to a C#. G7b13? Flat the E. Like that.

And, then some common devices, like knowing that G13b9 has an E triad within it. That 7b9#11 can take a tritone sub. That chords with a b9 can usually take a #9 and vice versa.

In most cases there's a scale or mode with the same notes that you can identify this way -- and you can pick the approach you find easier.

Secondary dominants might require some different thinking, but usually it's still tonal center and adjustments. So, if I see a D7 and I'm in C tonal center, I raise the F to F#. If I'm not sure of the tonal center, I'll probably default to G (thinking it's a V7) and it will still work.

[Tomcat]

Chat GPT save us:

"Tonal and modal music represent different approaches to organizing musical pitches and harmonies. Tonal music, prevalent in Western music since the Baroque era, centers around a key or tonic and uses chords to create a sense of movement and resolution towards that center. Modal music, on the other hand, relies on specific musical modes derived from ancient Greek or church modes, often with a less defined sense of harmonic direction and a focus on the unique characteristics of each mode. ....."

Most people are confused because modal and tonal music shares the same pitch material. But it's not about pitches - is about harmonic construction of the tune: Blue Bossa - tonal tune because chords follow functional rules: Im-ivm-iim7b5-V6, So What - modal tune. There are instances where both approaches are mixed up a little more or less - but this is not Blue Bossa case.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah the GPT thing is not really that relevant.

Jazz musicians don’t use the modes like musicians of the Middle Ages and Renaissance. In the case of something like Plainchant or Hildegard’s music the music purely melodic similar to Middle Eastern or Indian classical music.

Polyphonic music starting on the other hand was most often based on plainchant. So you get ‘modal cadences’ but these come from adding voices to single line modal melodies.

In jazz improvisation modes are more like free pitch sets derived from chords. Chord-scales one might almost say. Which is totally different.

It’s a bit like when a Turkish maqam might superficially resemble one of the scales a jazz musician might use, but the application and style is totally different.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pamosmusic]

I know, I've played 'em all :-)

Pics or it didn’t happen.

[Christian Miller]

Pics or it didn’t happen.

When you get a bunch of soundcloud links, know that you brought it on yourself

[pamosmusic]

When you get a bunch of soundcloud links, know that you brought it on yourself

In this case, I accept the consequences

[pamosmusic]

Infidel.

Attachment 124132

Cant tell … is this cannonball or Coltrane?

[pamosmusic]

Ali Baba probably. They're okay to slip in here and there. How many continuous bars of Dm is it? 24 or something?

Beats Coltrane any day, he just noodled on pents most of the time. Pretty mindless as I recall. May be wrong.

you always do bring the entertainment value, Ragman.

[pamosmusic]

You haven't listened to it yet. Me no silly.

I listened to enough of it to know it wasn’t one of the solos from Kind of Blue.

And for reasons beyond whether or not I’ve listened to your SoundCloud … you, sir, are very silly indeed.

[Strat-itis]

ragman it's mind boggling how grandiose you are about the jazz knowledge you profess and your total inability or even attempt to play any of it.

[ruger9]

ragman it's mind boggling how grandiose you are about the jazz knowledge you profess and your total inability or even attempt to play any of it.

[Strat-itis]

[AllanAllen]

ragman it's mind boggling how grandiose you are about the jazz knowledge you profess and your total inability or even attempt to play any of it.