David Baker Bebop Scales — Barry Harris half-steps

[pamosmusic]

Okay, so one thing that I've found super useful is looking at Barry's and Dave Baker's stuff and sorting them out by how long they extend the archetypal one-measure lines.

devices that add one beat:

1. starting on an enclosure (above, below, target)
2. starting with a third (or other interval)
3. starting with a triad
4. starting with a one-note reversal (so if you're starting on C, you go up to D, and then come back down)
5. adding an internal enclosure

devices that add two beats:

1. start by surrounding (target, above, target, below, back to target)
2. start with a chord (7th chord arpeggio)
3. start with an "arpeggio" (triad with the octave)
4. start with a two-note reversal
5. start with a triad, with a leading tone.
6. surround a note inside the line.

devices that add three beats:

1. start with chord, enclosing the first note
2. start with arpeggio, enclosing the first note
3. start with three-note reversal
4. start with a triad, surrounding the first note.

devices that add four beats:

1. start with a chord, surrounding the first note
2. start with an arpeggio, surrounding the first note
3. start with a four-note reversal

Of course, the added half steps (btw 3 and 2, 2 and 1) end up adding a beat, but at the moment I kind of keep that separate.

So to come back to this, I think I wasn’t quite sure why this felt like such a useful way to organize all the material, but you’ve put it into really clear terms there.

So if you take that basic one measure scalar line, it lands on beat one of the next measure and sets you up for a cool displacement of the resolution on beat one.

But obviously if you start the line on beat two, it sets you up on beat two. Beat three, beat three, etc.

And then every melodic device you add in the beginning middle or end changes that calculation and it seems like in incredibly practical way to start internalizing those devices.

[Cunamara]

Good grief, no wonder no one seems to be able to learn to play jazz anymore. How the **** did it devolve to sets of rules to be memorized and regurgitated? "Follow these rules and you'll be playing jazz" is a bunch of BS. It's like trying to write a story by memorizing words and grammatical rules.

We do not learn to speak or to read language by memorizing rules. Nor do we learn to play jazz that way. Looking at young jazz musicians on Youtube, my conclusion is that all the conservatories in the world are not turning out good jazz musicians; they might be turning out competent technicians, but those folks too often have nothing to actually say.

[joe2758]

We do not learn to speak or to read language by memorizing rules. Nor do we learn to play jazz that way. Looking at young jazz musicians on Youtube, my conclusion is that all the conservatories in the world are not turning out good jazz musicians; they might be turning out competent technicians, but those folks too often have nothing to actually say.

That is how good poets learn to write poetry. Who are the conservatory graduate technicians that you mean?

[pamosmusic]

Good grief, no wonder no one seems to be able to learn to play jazz anymore. How the **** did it devolve to sets of rules to be memorized and regurgitated? "Follow these rules and you'll be playing jazz" is a bunch of BS. It's like trying to write a story by memorizing words and grammatical rules.

We do not learn to speak or to read language by memorizing rules. Nor do we learn to play jazz that way. Looking at young jazz musicians on Youtube, my conclusion is that all the conservatories in the world are not turning out good jazz musicians; they might be turning out competent technicians, but those folks too often have nothing to actually say.

Oh good, another opportunity to say the same thing I’ve been saying for four pages.

Barry Harris has like … maybe a half dozen little rules for running scales that just sound like bebop. If you live with them for a long time, your playing sounds like bebop. Thats just not unreasonable to me.

David Baker has a gazillion little things that he calls “rules” but that strike me more as “contingencies.” Like … rather than memorizing them all, you treat them as opportunities to explore what happens when you do x or y with the scale.

And with all due respect, the reading and speaking analogy doesn’t hold water. We don’t learn those things by memorizing rules (though I will point out that “grammar” seems to have sufficient utility to still be taught in schools after a hundred odd years) but we do learn by imitating imitating imitating.

My four year old son learns a word and uses it at every single opportunity, and eventually figures out the correct context.

And we learn to read by sounding out the same small group of words over and over and over again, and then adding a new sound that opens up a new small group of words. And reading and language pedagogy also involves the use of “sight words” … meaning words you just memorize as such because they’re extremely common, even though the sounds contained therein might be advanced. For example, learning the “th” sound is kind of an advanced sound, but there is obvious utility to just memorizing the words “the” and “with.”

So you might consider these bebop scale exercises to be something like bebop “sight words.”

Or we can just say it’s stupid and college boys can’t play or whatever.

[pamosmusic]

It's like trying to write a story by memorizing words and grammatical rules.

Ill also note that I’ve been a writer in a past life and know a lot more than a few, and if you show me a writer without a notebook full of weird words they ran across while reading and multiple copies of Strunk and White, I’ll mail you a check for a hundred dollars

[pamosmusic]

For what it’s worth, for the last thirty years or so, there has been a debate in American education over how to teach reading.

The consensus moved away from, and then recently back to, phonics (sound it out) reading and the more I think about it, the more I actually like the analogy.

We actually do learn and memorize a set of rules — c makes a sss sound when followed by e, a k sound when followed by a consonant, and a chhh sound when followed by an h — and we internalize those by applying them over and over again, getting tripped up by exceptions, slowly chunking and memorizing common words, etc. We learn a couple sounds at a time and add to those as we get comfortable.

(there’s an incredible podcast on that reading debate called Sold a Story if you’re into that kind of thing)

[Bobby Timmons]

Good grief, no wonder no one seems to be able to learn to play jazz anymore. How the **** did it devolve to sets of rules to be memorized and regurgitated? "Follow these rules and you'll be playing jazz" is a bunch of BS. It's like trying to write a story by memorizing words and grammatical rules.

We do not learn to speak or to read language by memorizing rules. Nor do we learn to play jazz that way. Looking at young jazz musicians on Youtube, my conclusion is that all the conservatories in the world are not turning out good jazz musicians; they might be turning out competent technicians, but those folks too often have nothing to actually say.

Charlie Parker advocated for music education. Ur mad at theory.

[Christian Miller]

In real music there’s only contingencies. Rules are for the birds.


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[Bobby Timmons]

^ Yep, I'm sure you reinvent key signatures and time signatures every time you play.

[Christian Miller]

^ Yep, I'm sure you reinvent key signatures and time signatures every time you play.

No that is obviously not what I meant.

I mean there are people no rules in music only guidelines and conventions.

To take your example conventions on how you write down music are based around practicality. Key signatures used to be quite different a couple of centuries ago. Jazz musicians often don’t use them at all.

There’s no right or wrong here. There are conventions. Jazzers uses the invisible barline rule, but classical musicians do not, and so on.

When it comes to improvising in an idiom, the best way to learn it is to internalise a number of special cases and variations on them rather than trying to learn some fundamental ‘rules’ (that are kind of just guidelines anyway) and work back from there. Barry and David Baker teach this way.

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[Bobby Timmons]

I agree.

[pamosmusic]

In real music there’s only contingencies. Rules are for the birds.


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I think when I hear “rules” I usually interpret them as “heuristics.”

[GuyBoden]

Christian's very high quality Bebop playing and detailed video tutorials answers many of my BH scale questions.

[pamosmusic]

Christian's very high quality Bebop playing and detailed video tutorials answers many of my BH scale questions.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but this video is about the difference between the 6th diminished scales and the bebop scales?

[CliffR]

I think when I hear “rules” I usually interpret them as “heuristics.”

You're a maverick, Peter - you don't play by the rules, but by God you get results!

[GuyBoden]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but this video is about the difference between the 6th diminished scales and the bebop scales?

Yes, but Christian's video added some much needed clarity to my lack of BH scale knowledge, concerning use of the added note scales. (See Christian's video at about 4.30min.)

Edit: I know very little about the Barry Harris added note rules. Currently, I'm working on the Major Bebop scale fretboard positions.
I'm still waiting for the 'Talk Jazz' book in post from the USA.

[pamosmusic]

You're a maverick, Peter - you don't play by the rules, but by God you get results!

Thats me.

[GuyBoden]

Meanwhile..............................

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've been mapping my fretboard with the descending Rule 1 Major Scale added b6 (Bebop Major).

[buduranus2]

Good grief, no wonder no one seems to be able to learn to play jazz anymore. How the **** did it devolve to sets of rules to be memorized and regurgitated? "Follow these rules and you'll be playing jazz" is a bunch of BS. It's like trying to write a story by memorizing words and grammatical rules.

We do not learn to speak or to read language by memorizing rules. Nor do we learn to play jazz that way. Looking at young jazz musicians on Youtube, my conclusion is that all the conservatories in the world are not turning out good jazz musicians; they might be turning out competent technicians, but those folks too often have nothing to actually say.

This has been an entertaining and informative thread for me. I haven't been playing jazz that long (9 years) and started late in life, so I'll only get so far, which is better than nowhere at all. I have the David Baker vols 1&2. I didn't bond with Vol 1 (bebop scales). Vol 2 is a compendium of turnarounds. After having worked through the entire book, I don't think I ever used one of them. As for BH, his concepts are well beyond my grasp. (One of my favorite pianists, though, along with Hank Jones.)

My goal in jazz has been to be able to play something that sounds like "jazz" and feels like "jazz." Who knows, maybe I'm the Tiny Grimes of my era? When I read through a thread like this one, it is so far beyond my ability to comprehend that I don't know where, how, or why to begin. (No disparagement implied or intended.) So with some basic CST and a blues background I was at this level of development about six months ago. Not the best, not the worst, but I think people in a night club could get with it, which is what it's about for me:

[AllanAllen]

This has been an entertaining and informative thread for me. I haven't been playing jazz that long (9 years) and started late in life, so I'll only get so far, which is better than nowhere at all. I have the David Baker vols 1&2. I didn't bond with Vol 1 (bebop scales). Vol 2 is a compendium of turnarounds. After having worked through the entire book, I don't think I ever used one of them. As for BH, his concepts are well beyond my grasp. (One of my favorite pianists, though, along with Hank Jones.)

My goal in jazz has been to be able to play something that sounds like "jazz" and feels like "jazz." Who knows, maybe I'm the Tiny Grimes of my era? When I read through a thread like this one, it is so far beyond my ability to comprehend that I don't know where, how, or why to begin. (No disparagement implied or intended.) So with some basic CST and a blues background I was at this level of development about six months ago. Not the best, not the worst, but I think people in a night club could get with it, which is what it's about for me:

Sounds good. If you aren’t gigging already, you should be.

[buduranus2]

Sounds good. If you aren’t gigging already, you should be.

Thanks, Allan. You're very kind. I've played jazz with other people six times total, three with a drummer. I know I could progress further and faster if I at least had a steady jam. But out here in the North Atlanta suburbs it's kind of slim pickins. (No pun intended.) If I were back in LA it'd be a different story. Appreciate your encouragement!

[AllanAllen]

No excuses with me man. I’m 60 miles south of Chicago in corn fields and I’m gigging. You can find people if you try, and you should try.

Go to blues jams and play blues heads as your solos, it’s like a calling card to the undercover jazzers.

[charlieparker]

This has been an entertaining and informative thread for me. I haven't been playing jazz that long (9 years) and started late in life, so I'll only get so far, which is better than nowhere at all. I have the David Baker vols 1&2. I didn't bond with Vol 1 (bebop scales). Vol 2 is a compendium of turnarounds. After having worked through the entire book, I don't think I ever used one of them. As for BH, his concepts are well beyond my grasp. (One of my favorite pianists, though, along with Hank Jones.)

My goal in jazz has been to be able to play something that sounds like "jazz" and feels like "jazz." Who knows, maybe I'm the Tiny Grimes of my era? When I read through a thread like this one, it is so far beyond my ability to comprehend that I don't know where, how, or why to begin. (No disparagement implied or intended.) So with some basic CST and a blues background I was at this level of development about six months ago. Not the best, not the worst, but I think people in a night club could get with it, which is what it's about for me:

If you can swing like that, I don't think the note choices matter that much. I guess it's true what Duke said, "It don't mean a thang...".

[pamosmusic]

This has been an entertaining and informative thread for me. I haven't been playing jazz that long (9 years) and started late in life, so I'll only get so far, which is better than nowhere at all. I have the David Baker vols 1&2. I didn't bond with Vol 1 (bebop scales). Vol 2 is a compendium of turnarounds. After having worked through the entire book, I don't think I ever used one of them. As for BH, his concepts are well beyond my grasp. (One of my favorite pianists, though, along with Hank Jones.)

My goal in jazz has been to be able to play something that sounds like "jazz" and feels like "jazz." Who knows, maybe I'm the Tiny Grimes of my era? When I read through a thread like this one, it is so far beyond my ability to comprehend that I don't know where, how, or why to begin. (No disparagement implied or intended.) So with some basic CST and a blues background I was at this level of development about six months ago. Not the best, not the worst, but I think people in a night club could get with it, which is what it's about for me:

Sounds great.

For what it’s worth, this stuff really isn’t over your head.

Part of what’s happening here is that I’m trying to figure out how to organize it.

It’s a bit like reorganizing your closet. Even if at the end you might have a really nice and accessible space, there will be a point in time where the closet is empty and the room is covered in a bunch of old junk and clothes that don’t fit.

[Christian Miller]

Good grief, no wonder no one seems to be able to learn to play jazz anymore. How the **** did it devolve to sets of rules to be memorized and regurgitated? "Follow these rules and you'll be playing jazz" is a bunch of BS. It's like trying to write a story by memorizing words and grammatical rules.

We do not learn to speak or to read language by memorizing rules. Nor do we learn to play jazz that way. Looking at young jazz musicians on Youtube, my conclusion is that all the conservatories in the world are not turning out good jazz musicians; they might be turning out competent technicians, but those folks too often have nothing to actually say.

I often make the analogy to language, and then realise that I don’t actually speak any other languages haha.

Maybe you have more insight on this than I do.

I’m probably more sympathetic to this outlook than it might look from my posts. I do honestly think people shouldn’t bother with Barry stuff until they’ve spent some time doing what you’ve outlined.

This is FWIW what I did, I spent a few years learning bop lines etc by ear and copped a lot of licks, and then realised that Barry encapsulated all of this stuff very well. But the ear work came first.

Let me say there are a few people I suspect who could do with watching less YouTube and listen to and work on more music.

The problem is people learning jazz are often very smart people from disciplines like engineering, physics, computer science etc. I’ve taught super string theorists. So they look for an approach to learning jazz that looks like their profession/background. It took me a long time to deprogram myself from that mindset myself having a STEM background.

What doesn’t help is musos have a tendency to go all music of the spheres on you at the drop of hat.

Anyway what Barry offers is a way to come up with your own bop language and sound less like a collection of canned licks but more like it’s your native language. The “rules” are all idiomatic. We play this stuff because it sounds like bop and the rules make cool sounding stuff. That’s the sort of stuff I think is ultimately much more practical than theoretical. It’s not trying to tie up every possibility into some neat theory. It’s also not trying to explain why music sounds good.

But canned licks are great, and not to be sniffed at. Everyone should spend some time learning licks, even if your eventual aim is not to play them.


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