David Baker Bebop Scales — Barry Harris half-steps

[Christian Miller]

Everything’s easy until you try to do it on a gig


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[joe2758]

Learn everything. :P It's not that hard.

[pamosmusic]

Everything’s easy until you try to do it on a gig


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cue the response regarding the difference between “simple” and “easy.”

[joe2758]

I’ll also point out that sometimes people have a different standard for what constitutes something being “learned” or “internalized.”

[AllanAllen]

cue the response regarding the difference between “simple” and “easy.”

Yeah, jazz is devastatingly simple to summarize. Putting it together in front of people, is another thing.

[joe2758]

Everything’s easy until you try to do it on a gig


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sorta douchey thing to say

[pamosmusic]

sorta douchey thing to say

He's just reading the room

[joe2758]

I'll come back if I play gigs I guess

[pamosmusic]

Well I certainly don't think that's what he was saying. Not to presume to speak for the Mighty Christian Miller, but I'd wager he was drawing a distinction between learning concepts, which can be pretty easy, and actually learning to execute something in real time, which can be quite a bit trickier.

I could rattle off the rules themselves to you pretty quickly, but I don't really feel like I've "internalized" those half-step rules, and that's after maybe two years? On top of which I was pretty familiar with the bebop scales for about a dozen years before that, which are pretty similar. I've worked on them with varying levels of commitment (probably very little committment in those first dozen years), but still ...

And some of it comes out quite quickly. But I always feel like there are new little corners of this stuff I haven't thought about much or practiced much. So it's a much longer journey than the four pages it takes up in the Howard Rees book or whatever.

[pamosmusic]

I'm also open to the possibility that I'm just stupid, and/or bad at this.

Feel free to discuss.

[Tal_175]

I'll come back if I play gigs I guess

You can kick ass without playing gigs. Ted Greene and many studio musicians would attest.

[GuyBoden]

I've been using the Major Bebop scale descending in two octave patterns.
Just, to get them under my fingers.


Example below, this works well to my ears.

[AllanAllen]

Is the Bebop major scale the same as the 6th diminished? Or is this another set of scales to learn?

Don't worry Peter, you can't be stupider at this than I am.

[Christian Miller]

sorta douchey thing to say

Why?

I have three decades of failing to put it together on the bandstand to back it up.

Although it is of course possible (likely even) I’m just a bit rubbish.

Listening back always the details of the “simple” or “easy” things that bug me. You have to practice that stuff a lot.

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[Christian Miller]

You can kick ass without playing gigs. Ted Greene and many studio musicians would attest.

What I said re gigs is also true of recording. Maybe even more so, because you get to hear your mistakes over and over.

You have to play a little safer on a session, you might take more risks live.

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[Christian Miller]

Is the Bebop major scale the same as the 6th diminished? Or is this another set of scales to learn?

Don't worry Peter, you can't be stupider at this than I am.

The bebop major scale has the same notes as the 6th/dim. It’s a David Baker concept. Barry doesn’t use it. (I think Peter pointed it out but I just wanted to be clear.)


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[pamosmusic]

The bebop major scale has the same notes as the 6th/dim. It’s a David Baker concept. Barry doesn’t use it. (I think Peter pointed it out but I just wanted to be clear.)


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My understanding is that the difference between their dominant scales is mostly conceptual and practically they’re very similar.

Barry has (or his acolytes have) half step rules that mirror Dave Bakers major bebop scale, but the conceptual difference makes them very different in practice in a way that isn’t true of the dominant versions

[Christian Miller]

My understanding is that the difference between their dominant scales is mostly conceptual and practically they’re very similar.

Barry has (or his acolytes have) half step rules that mirror Dave Bakers major bebop scale, but the conceptual difference makes them very different in practice in a way that isn’t true of the dominant versions

I don’t really do the major scale much tbh. The odd/even thing never made sense to me. I’ve always done chord tones. I should probably do it properly at some point.

So I think you probably know more about that than I do.

I haven’t worked through the Baker books but you can go very deep with the Barry harris added note rules where you end up with things that have all of the chromatic notes in.

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[GuyBoden]

Since you bring it up, this is the most obvious difference in the Baker and Harris methodologies. There are places on the margins where you ended up with slightly different applications of the dominant scale, but the major scale is the big one. Barry (and, by extension, Roni Ben Hur) consider the major chord tones to be 1 3 5 and 7.

That means that when you start on the 7 (in C major, a B) then you get the following:

B A Ab G F E D C B

The downbeats are in bold and are all the non-chord tones.

Whereas Baker considers the chord tones to be 1 3 5 and 6.

B A G F E D C B A

So in his case, B is a non-chord tone so he leaves out the half step and gets mostly chord tones on downbeats.

In practice, Roni and Barry Harris usually seem to skip the half-step when they start on the 7th and add it in the second octave.

I preferred this:

[Bobby Timmons]

Everything’s easy until you try to do it on a gig.

Bobby, it feels like you’re not reading anything I’m posting and then just telling me it’s easy.

I’ll also point out that sometimes people have a different standard for what constitutes something being “learned” or “internalized.”

I don't understand. You told me your goal was to teach it so I tailored my reply to that saying you can probably get to the point to where you grasp everything quickly and then build your command of it as you go. I didn't mean you'll get command to where you can dominate all of it on a gig quickly.

I'm also open to the possibility that I'm just stupid, and/or bad at this.

You're overestimating how much material there is. Memorize the main topics and you'll be good. Then you can focus on them gradually to a deeper level as you go.

Added half steps
(Dominant) scale in 3rds
Scale in diatonic triads
Scale in chords. Chords being diatonic 7th chords.
Pivots
Half step below all those devices
Barry's chromatic scale
Family of dominants
3 important arpeggios. Arpeggios being a triad arpeggio with the root repeated at the top.
BH 5432 licks
Scale outlining
Rhythms like 16th note triplets

[Christian Miller]

Bobby, I don’t mean to be funny, but i am not. I first encountered Barry’s teaching twenty years ago - and I’ve been actually this stuff for years at this point, and I credit it with teaching me bop. It took me years to get it down to the point that it is. The joke being that what I’ve taken from it is only a fraction of what’s on dvd set I lol.

If you are super focussed and dedicated to this approach maybe you’d be quicker than me but it’s still the long haul.

In practice either it’s in your playing or not. It’s easy to fool yourself. I can’t really accept anything less than bomb proof internalisation. That counts for learning tunes too btw.

But then, gigs teach that.

It can be demoralising for many how long it takes to get things in one’s playing so it comes out under fire. But over time I think you get used to it.

In general I would say my playing lags a six months to a year in average behind what I am working on. I don’t think that’s unusual from speaking to other players.


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[pamosmusic]

I don't understand. You told me your goal was to teach it so I tailored my reply to that saying you can probably get to the point to where you grasp everything quickly and then build your command of it as you go. I didn't mean you'll get command to where you can dominate all of it on a gig quickly.

You're overestimating how much material there is. Memorize the main topics and you'll be good. Then you can focus on them gradually to a deeper level as you go.

Added half steps
(Dominant) scale in 3rds
Scale in diatonic triads
Scale in chords. Chords being diatonic 7th chords.
Pivots
Half step below all those devices
Barry's chromatic scale
Family of dominants
3 important arpeggios. Arpeggios being a triad arpeggio with the root repeated at the top.
BH 5432 licks
Scale outlining

Then maybe we’re actually differing on how well we feel we need to know something before we teach it.

For me I need to know something better and more thoroughly to teach something than to play it.

And just to point out the obvious … “family of dominants” takes up one line, but such a deep and interesting and versatile technique for achieving a wide variety of dissonances that it’s a little silly to represent it as something you’d tackle quickly.

Ditto for most things on that list

[Bobby Timmons]

Ok, if you want to argue how you can't get a grasp of it quickly when that's your goal I won't try to stop you. :P

[GuyBoden]

I've starting with this:

Rule 1: Descending Major Bebop Scale.
Starting on the tonic (1st), 3rd, 5th and 7th, add one step, between 6th and 5th.

(So, just a simple Major scale with a flatten 6th. I can't see any problems.)

[pamosmusic]

Ok, if you want to argue how you can't get a grasp of it quickly when that's your goal I won't try to stop you.

Bobby, I do think you can grasp the rules easily. But the next thing in there is years of practice

Ive also literally said numerous times that Ive been practicing this stuff for years.

So what exactly are you suggesting I do differently?