David Baker Bebop Scales — Barry Harris half-steps

[Christian Miller]

[GuyBoden]

really?

as far as I know, bergonzi’s is pretty much David Bakers.

though Bergonzi also has bebop modes which is interesting.

He also has loads of really interesting material, just not bebop focused in the same way

Yes, David Baker's Book has Bebop type lines, Bergonzi's book is more modern(ish).

I preferred Jerry Bergonzi's book: "Simply start the bop scale on any of the remaining degrees of the scale and use it as an approach note". So, he's simply adding an add extra chromatic note after for example the 9th, before the starting the usual Bebop scale. (descending)

David Baker's book: "When starting the scale on a non-chord tone many options exist.". He then lists eleven options.


I find that Jerry Bergonzi's is a much simpler method.

[Christian Miller]

Hes brilliant. Lots of really nice improvisational stuff that I use all the time. I just don’t really think of him as a bebopper so I think he’s just Bergonzifying some stuff that’s already out there for that

Yeah I know he's good and people like him, I just have no reference of comparison, and at present I doubt I'll check him out.

I've also.. cooled a LOT in the past few years on checking out improv concepts etc? I'm not sure why. I think it may be because I feel I have enough stuff to assimilate and not a huge amount of bandwidth to do it perhaps.

[Christian Miller]

Yes, David Baker's Book has Bebop type lines, Bergonzi's book is more modern(ish).

I preferred Jerry Bergonzi's book: "Simply start the bop scale on any of the remaining degrees of the scale and use it as an approach note". So, he's simply adding an add extra chromatic note after for example the 9th, before the starting the usual Bebop scale. (descending)

David Baker's book: "When starting the scale on a non-chord tone many options exist.". He then lists eleven options.


I find that Jerry Bergonzi's is a much simpler method.

From your posts, I would say you are doing more analysis on the added note scales than Barry tended to in class.

Mainstream jazz education stuff tends to analyse each note harmonically. Barry was more - here's a line that sounds cool on G7, now link it to this other thing.

With Barry your inputs are basically, what note you start on and if it's on the beat or not. Where you end up is the main thing, so you can stick another module on it.

It's all a bit arbitrary seeming until you practice it into muscle and ear memory. I wouldn't say I have the whole thing internalised. I can't see that any other scale rule would be harder or easier in this regard.

And now I feel bad I don't spend more time practicing this stuff these days....

[pamosmusic]

Yes, David Baker's Book has Bebop type lines, Bergonzi's book is more modern(ish).

I preferred Jerry Bergonzi's book: "Simply start the bop scale on any of the remaining degrees of the scale and use it as an approach note". So, he's simply adding an add extra chromatic note after for example the 9th, before the starting the usual Bebop scale. (descending)

David Baker's book: "When starting the scale on a non-chord tone many options exist.". He then lists eleven options.


I find that Jerry Bergonzi's is a much simpler method.

You compared it to Barry’s initially.

Point taken though. I think pretty much everyone is simpler than David baker.

Barrys I think is simpler not because of the rules or whatever but just the lack of interest in having chord tones on every downbeat makes things a little looser and easier to grasp.

[GuyBoden]

You compared it to Barry’s initially.

Point taken though. I think pretty much everyone is simpler than David baker.

Barrys I think is simpler not because of the rules or whatever but just the lack of interest in having chord tones on every downbeat makes things a little looser and easier to grasp.

Sorry, I was comparing all three methods.

IMHO, Jerry Bergonzi's has the simplest rules of the three methods. But yes, I agree, the BH method could potentially create more interesting lines, but I have not internalised all of the BH rules (I'll stick with it).

What I like is that anyone can quickly adopt and understand Jerry Bergonzi's simple Bebop scale rule. (Basically, he's simply saying, just add another chromatic note after the non-chord tone starting note.)

[wolflen]

Sorry, I was comparing all three methods.

IMHO, Jerry Bergonzi's has the simplest rules of the three methods. But yes, I agree, the BH method could potentially create more interesting lines, but I have not internalised all of the BH rules (I'll stick with it).

What I like is that anyone can quickly adopt and understand Jerry Bergonzi's simple Bebop scale rule. (Basically, he's simply saying, just add another chromatic note after the non-chord tone starting note.)

Ever try some of Dave Creamer stuff..very cool..guitar oriented

[pamosmusic]

Sorry, I was comparing all three methods.

IMHO, Jerry Bergonzi's has the simplest rules of the three methods. But yes, I agree, the BH method could potentially create more interesting lines, but I have not internalised all of the BH rules (I'll stick with it).

What I like is that anyone can quickly adopt and understand Jerry Bergonzi's simple Bebop scale rule. (Basically, he's simply saying, just add another chromatic note after the non-chord tone starting note.)

Hmm.

What book is this?

I got some My Music Masterclass credits for Christmas maybe last year? I used them all on Bergonzi stuff and one of them was his bebop scale. I feel like I remember him mentioning some of those other rules, but I might just be mashing that together with Baker in my head

[Mick-7]

Ever try some of Dave Creamer stuff..very cool..guitar oriented

As you know, I started a thread on his concepts, but I'll see if I have anything from him directly related to the subject of this thread.
Dave Creamer Exercises

[GuyBoden]

Simple descending Dom Bebop scales with an added chromatic note.

Below, I am using these when the note on the first downbeat is the 2nd, 4th or 6th note. (Non-Chord Tones)






I simply use the normal Dom Bebop scale for the Chord Tone notes: 1st, 3rd, 5th, b7th.

[GuyBoden]

Using the Dom Bebop scale, 2nd is on the downbeat, so add an extra chromatic note before the 1st. (BH Dom Half Step Rule 4)

I appreciate that the majority of players on this forum already know about adding extra chromatic notes to the basic Dom Bebop scale, but I've never spent a lot of time with these systematic Bebop scale methods, so I'm learning and posting my findings for any other fellow travellers down this well trodden path.

Simple example using a Major ii-V-I descending phrase below:
(The 2nd of the Dom Bebop scale is on the first downbeat.)

[GuyBoden]

Using the Dom Bebop scale, starting note 3rd is on the downbeat, so add three extra chromatic notes to the Dom scale. (BH Dom Half Step Rule 2)

Simple example using a Major V-I descending phrase below:
(The 3rd of the Dom Bebop scale is on the first downbeat.)

[RyanM]

What’s the next step after bebop scales? How does it translate to playing solos? It seems like it’s become an end in itself.

[Christian Miller]

I mean I learned the most by just transcribing horn solos. Quite often there’ll just be a honking great bop/added note scale just hanging out. And they sound pretty cool.

For example, check out the B section of this solo

Fragments of these scales are very common. It may depend on the way you prefer to view these things - chord tones with passing tones, or bits of a bigger scales, but they are all over.


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[GuyBoden]

What’s the next step after bebop scales? How does it translate to playing solos? It seems like it’s become an end in itself.

Apparently, in later Barry Harris workshops there was something called 'Expanded Extra Note Rules', where you could add extra notes almost anywhere to the Dom scale.

I'm trying to play the 'Expanded Extra Note Rules' whilst reversing direction. So, I might start the phrase descending, then change to ascending, all the while keeping the chord tones on the downbeats. It's not easy, but sounds more like Jazz to my ears.

[Petimar]

What’s the next step after bebop scales? How does it translate to playing solos?

Making these into cool sounds, always the hardest part of using ANY musical device.

[pamosmusic]

What’s the next step after bebop scales? How does it translate to playing solos? It seems like it’s become an end in itself.

I guess the ABCs would be involved if we're sticking to the Barry Harris framework.

Starting to build lines by combining the scale runs with other components like pivots, arpeggios of various sorts. That sort of thing.

David Baker has a second book and it's all transcribed vocabulary.

So that about covers it -- however you get there, using those building blocks to build lines over actual tunes, and/or working on actual vocabulary and linking it together with the scale stuff.

[Christian Miller]

Making these into cool sounds, always the hardest part of using ANY musical device.

As I think eg Wayne Shorter shows, they are already cool sounds

If they don’t sound cool, the fault may not be in the pitch choices. Tbh master musicians can make very commonplace and “boring” things sound great. Transcribing a chorus of Hank Mobley teaches that lesson (and he has bebop scales too).

In terms of developing the idea into more interesting bebop lines I’m afraid I’m going to have to be annoying and answer with ‘the Barry Harris method….


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[GuyBoden]

Anyone have any thoughts about the Barry Harris 'Expanded Extra Note Rules' ?

[Christian Miller]

Anyone have any thoughts about the Barry Harris 'Expanded Extra Note Rules' ?

I haven’t really got around to them. They seem cool.


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[pamosmusic]

Anyone have any thoughts about the Barry Harris 'Expanded Extra Note Rules' ?

Would that be the chromatic scale? Or would that be using other notes in place of the passing notes?

So I guess the short answer would be no for me

[GuyBoden]

Would that be the chromatic scale? Or would that be using other notes in place of the passing notes?

So I guess the short answer would be no for me

See below:
Workshop Vol2, Chapter 1, Expanded ‘Extra Note Rules’
The Barry Harris Workshop Video Part 2 – Howard Rees' Jazz Workshops

[pamosmusic]

See below:
Workshop Vol2, Chapter 1, Expanded ‘Extra Note Rules’
The Barry Harris Workshop Video Part 2 – Howard Rees' Jazz Workshops

It doesn’t say what they are?

Though I would guess we’d be skipping quite a lot to get there based on its position in the curriculum.

[GuyBoden]

It doesn’t say what they are?

Apparently, for chord tones you can add a max of 13 extra notes and for non-chord tones you can add a max of 12 notes. As long as the chord tones are on the downbeats.

These 'Expanded Extra Note Rules' change the whole game. IMHO.

[pamosmusic]

Apparently, for chord tones you can add a max of 13 extra notes and for non-chord tones you can add a max of 12 notes. As long as the chord tones are on the downbeats.

These 'Expanded Extra Note Rules' change the whole game. IMHO.

What are they?