David Baker Bebop Scales — Barry Harris half-steps

[pamosmusic]

On the “improv” side of things the 7th is a chord tone. On the “harmony” side it is a diminished note.

Just was always curious if there was a reason why.

The stakes for this, of course, are extremely high.

[pamosmusic]

People are dunking on Oscar Peterson?

Oh man, he's a polarizing figure. For the life of me I don't know why.

He plays a lot of notes I guess, but We Get Requests is a desert island album for me. Understated, groovin as all heck, and beautiful.

[pcjazz]

Just was always curious if there was a reason why.

The stakes for this, of course, are extremely high.

The disjuncture between “improv” and “harmony” used to bother me, thinking that there ought to be a unified field. I got over it. The simple reason is that when you build a chord using pick-a-note, skip-a-note on the 7-note scale you get 1-3-5-7 but on the major or minor 8-note scale (with a note between 5 and 6) you get 1-3-5-6. The more sophisticated reason is that the 8-note scales are actually constructed from chords (rather than the reverse). So in the major and minor sixth dim scales, which are constructed from M6 or m6 chords and a dim chord, the 6th is a chord tone, while in the dominant and dom flat five diminished scales, constructed from dom7 or dom7b5 chords and a dim chord, the flat 7th is a chord tone. So on the “improv” side chords come from scales, while on the “harmony” side by contrast scales come from chords. That’s my understanding anyway.

[pamosmusic]

The disjuncture between “improv” and “harmony” used to bother me, thinking that there ought to be a unified field. I got over it. The simple reason is that when you build a chord using pick-a-note, skip-a-note on the 7-note scale you get 1-3-5-7 but on the major or minor 8-note scale (with a note between 5 and 6) you get 1-3-5-6. The more sophisticated reason is that the 8-note scales are actually constructed from chords (rather than the reverse). So in the major and minor sixth dim scales, which are constructed from M6 or m6 chords and a dim chord, the 6th is a chord tone, while in the dominant and dom flat five diminished scales, constructed from dom7 or dom7b5 chords and a dim chord, the flat 7th is a chord tone. So on the “improv” side chords come from scales, while on the “harmony” side by contrast scales come from chords. That’s my understanding anyway.

interesting

I accept.

The more sophisticated reason is that the 8-note scales are actually constructed from chords (rather than the reverse).

That in particular seems compelling.

Which I guess is a sophisticated way of saying what you said earlier, which is that they're different tools developed for different things, but he manages to keep that logical consistency through so many concepts that it's always a bit jarring when it isn't there.

[Mick-7]

I';ve never been a fan of the term harmonic major. major is already harmonic by definition. just because you add a guidetone borrowed from dim does not warrant this terminology imo.

Gee, harmonic major is my go-to scale for Caravan. Am I missing something or are we talking about two different things?

I don't know what djg is talking about either, the harmonic major scale is a major scale with a b6th, there is no "guide tone" added to it.

C Harmonic Major: C-D-E-F-G-Ab-B (= C harmonic minor with the 3rd raised)

[pamosmusic]

I don't know what djg is talking about either, the harmonic major scale is a major scale with a b6th, there is no "guide tone" added to it.

C Harmonic Major: C-D-E-F-G-Ab-B (= C harmonic minor with the 3rd raised)

I think he's just talking about the name.

Harmonic minor is called harmonic minor because it contains the cadential chords in minor (ii and iv, V and viio) but contained a forbidden #2 melodic interval, so was presumably not as useful for melodies.

In reality, that interval made appearances, but that's neither here nor there.

Or maybe he's talking about something else. I don't know.

[Christian Miller]

i thought BH considers 1 3 5 6 the major chord tones and the maj7 a note borrowed from diminished? i dont recall what baker has to say. but in general baker was more concerned with the single line, reverse-engineering bird and fats, while BH as a pianist was also interested in hidden movements via the maj and minor 6/dim scales.

No that’s the “harmony” class. The “improvisation” class was single note stuff and the added note scales don’t really have anything to do with the maj6-dim. (Although you can use those scales for lines as well.)

Barry separated the two topics.

i#ve never been a fan of the term harmonic major. major is already harmonic by definition. just because you add a guidetone borrowed from dim does not warrant this terminology imo.

Good man.

I also find the term ‘melodic minor harmony’ inherently irritating for the same reason, but I should probably get out more.


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[Christian Miller]

People are dunking on Oscar Peterson?

Barry didn’t approve of him, but that’s mostly because he was Canadian AFAIK


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[Christian Miller]

Good question. I don’t have an answer.

It briefly appears in the Howard Rees stuff and he describes the 7th as the chord tone, and the Roni Ben Hur book also describes 7th as the chord tone. Baker describes 6 as the chord tone.

It doesn’t make a ton of sense to me because as you describe, the 6th diminished scale obviously considers the 6 the chord tone and the 7th the borrowed diminished note.

I haven’t really bothered with it just because Bakers makes more sense to me so on the rare occasions I’ve worked with the major version, I’ve used his formulation, but I would appreciate clarification on this from the real ones … Christian, dasein, PMB, with some first hand experience with the man himself.

My experience is that we didn’t spend much time with the major scale, but that might just be down to the intermittent nature of my classes with him.

In the final development, you can apply what even version of the added note rules you like to any scale. So you can apply the rules to the harmonic minor. You can tweak the rules to emphasise different notes of the scale too.

The odd note rule produces some lovely doubling back stuff C D B A G F E. That’s where a lot of this stuff come alive. But obviously the half step between 6 and 5 is really common.

Also in scale outlines the m6-dim is the default choice. I never found out why that was; or why we don’t use maj6-dim for lines

I’m sure there’s no prohibition against it

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[Christian Miller]

Gee, harmonic major is my go-to scale for Caravan. Am I missing something or are we talking about two different things?

The correct scale for caravan is of course C dominant/mixolydian

(I’m not even joking lol)

The harmonic major I always found a hard sound to hear as a scale because of that b6-7 leap. But you do sometimes hear it melodically


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[djg]

No that’s the “harmony” class. The “improvisation” class was single note stuff and the added note scales don’t really have anything to do with the maj6-dim. (Although you can use those scales for lines as well.)

Barry separated the two topics.


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ok. when i was a puppy i went to the 1990s classes in the hague that are on youtube now. no much time was spent on major. but for min6 diminished many lines were practiced, like min6 down, dim up, etc. like in the tune bebop or countless sonny stitt lines over minor chords (sonny also did it over so what, to the chagrin of miles.) he showed a lot of pianistic stuff that completely went over my head. i do remember barry offering dollar bills for the proper execution of lines in tempo. good times.

[GuyBoden]

I'm starting to get some useable lines from Dom Half Step Rule 1.

I've created and have been playing this simple line below:

[Christian Miller]

ok. when i was a puppy i went to the 1990s classes in the hague that are on youtube now. no much time was spent on major. but for min6 diminished many lines were practiced, like min6 down, dim up, etc. like in the tune bebop or countless sonny stitt lines over minor chords (sonny also did it over so what, to the chagrin of miles.) he showed a lot of pianistic stuff that completely went over my head. i do remember barry offering dollar bills for the proper execution of lines in tempo. good times.

The m6 is standard scale for the minor chord in both classes, so it isn’t quite as cut and dried as I indicated.

No dollar bills available at the classes I attended….


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[AllanAllen]

The correct scale for caravan is of course C dominant/mixolydian

(I’m not even joking lol)

The harmonic major I always found a hard sound to hear as a scale because of that b6-7 leap. But you do sometimes hear it melodically


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I just tried to look up the C dominant scale in Allan Kingstone's book, he's only got 4 scales? Major sixth, Minor sixth, seventh Diminished, and seventh flat five diminished.

Anyway, I think you need the Db to make it Caravan, otherwise you might as well play Lester Leaps in, C mixolydian will just be a bluesy vamp into the R.C. bridge.

[joe2758]

I just tried to look up the C dominant scale in Allan Kingstone's book, he's only got 4 scales? Major sixth, Minor sixth, seventh Diminished, and seventh flat five diminished.

Anyway, I think you need the Db to make it Caravan, otherwise you might as well play Lester Leaps in, C mixolydian will just be a bluesy vamp into the R.C. bridge.

Alan's is a harmony book

[GuyBoden]

Using Dom Half Step Rule 1.

I think that extending the pickup at the start creates a more interesting and usable line:

Simple example below:

[Christian Miller]

I just tried to look up the C dominant scale in Allan Kingstone's book, he's only got 4 scales? Major sixth, Minor sixth, seventh Diminished, and seventh flat five diminished.

Anyway, I think you need the Db to make it Caravan, otherwise you might as well play Lester Leaps in, C mixolydian will just be a bluesy vamp into the R.C. bridge.

That’s the scales for harmony - the improv scales are basically major, dominant (mixolydian) and minor-6 dim.

Go listen to the way Wes and Kenny Burrell versions. It’s interesting, they mix it up, some of the players really like the regular dominant tonality. Not just the guitarists either - listen to the trumpet solo on Kenny’s version for instance.

Wes uses the major dominant sound very heavily, Kenny less so, but he does use it.

This era players were less conditioned into playing on the written extensions.

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[pamosmusic]

Here’s another thing I’ve been working on with the bebop scales.

Just working with realllllly simple formulaic resolutions to the tonic.

[AllanAllen]

Yeah, but I prefer the Ellington ones where he plays that b9. For me, it's like that #11 in Take The A Train, the songs just not the same without it.

It's personal taste, for my own improv. I like the Kenny Burell Caravan a lot.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah, but I prefer the Ellington ones where he plays that b9. For me, it's like that #11 in Take The A Train, the songs just not the same without it.

It's personal taste, for my own improv. I like the Kenny Burell Caravan a lot.

Modernist

In seriousness it’s interesting how varied the approaches are on the take

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[buduranus2]

Gee, harmonic major is my go-to scale for Caravan. Am I missing something or are we talking about two different things?

Another senior moment brought to you by yours truly. On further reflection I (apparently) meant harmonic minor. i.e. F harmonic minor over C7.

[AllanAllen]

Another senior moment brought to you by yours truly. On further reflection I (apparently) meant harmonic minor. i.e. F harmonic minor over C7.

Yeah that’s the right one. It gives you the C7b9.

[Mick-7]

The harmonic major I always found a hard sound to hear as a scale because of that b6-7 leap. But you do sometimes hear it melodically.

Must be more to it than that, the harmonic minor scale has the same minor 3rd interval from b6th to Maj.7th, do you have trouble hearing it as a scale?

Another senior moment brought to you by yours truly. On further reflection I (apparently) meant harmonic minor. i.e. F harmonic minor over C7.

Yeah that’s the right one. It gives you the C7b9.

The F harmonic major scale over C7 also gives you the b9th (only), but the harmonic minor gives you the b13th (Ab) too. I'm more apt to add the 13th than the b13th to a 7b9 chord.

[Christian Miller]

Must be more to it than that, the harmonic minor scale has the same minor 3rd interval from b6th to Maj.7th, do you have trouble hearing it as.

Probably. I think it may also be a conceptual thing. Composers have been borrowing b6 into the major key since at least the 18th century, but the concept of harmonic major afaik was invented in the 70s?

So the sound has been around for ages but all the OGs were happy to use the sound without relating it to a scale. So here he have the Cb on a Bb7 chord (the b9) going to Eb. Similar things pop up in bebop all the time of course, but it’s fun to see how far it goes back.


19th century composers took it further. All the IVm chords and so on. Diminished chords at every opportunity haha.

Classical theorists wouldn’t know what harmonic major was. I think they tended to think in terms of chromatic alterations to the prevailing key. Mozart et al. use a hip scale on the bVI7#11 I don’t think there’s even a name for. But I could sing it. We don’t have to give every collection of 7 notes a cute label I guess.

Barry of course would say it’s all maj6-dim. And the only difference here is whether you see the b6 as an alteration or an addition to the modality… which in most cases makes no difference. (Except 6th chords are not used as tonic chords in common practice harmony of course, unlike in jazz). But Barry always connected things to the Western classical tradition of course…

Anyway, I don’t feel the need to conceptualise it as a scale because I rarely use it as such, but if you analysed my playing you might be able to say I use it all the time.

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[Mick-7]

Composers have been borrowing b6 into the major key since at least the 18th century, but the concept of harmonic major afaik was invented in the 70s?

Any idea who started the trend? Maybe it's a Berklee mutant?