David Baker Bebop Scales — Barry Harris half-steps

[pamosmusic]

Metronome on beat one is my favorite way to use the metronome. If I need to count, I tap my foot on 1 and 3 or sing the ride symbol rhythm. I use metronome apps as they allow for doing this at slower tempos than 160. I couldn't not find a stand alone metronome that would allow you to mute some of the beats in a given tempo.

Yeah I don’t like to have my phone with me when I’m practicing but that’s the trade off. Kind of annoying.

[buduranus2]

If you can swing like that, I don't think the note choices matter that much. I guess it's true what Duke said, "It don't mean a thang...".

Your praise is very meaningful to me, so my sincerest thanks and appreciaton for that. There are many players on this site whose knowledge of applied harmony is orders of magnitude beyond my capacity. But the great thing about (non-classical) music is that you don't have to be that good, just good enough. Best to you!

Sounds great.

For what it’s worth, this stuff really isn’t over your head.

Part of what’s happening here is that I’m trying to figure out how to organize it.

It’s a bit like reorganizing your closet. Even if at the end you might have a really nice and accessible space, there will be a point in time where the closet is empty and the room is covered in a bunch of old junk and clothes that don’t fit.

You're very generous and your analogy is well-received. With me it's more like tools in the toolbox. Back when cars were mechanical there was a lot you could do with just a screwdriver. So I try to make the most of the few I've got and be comfortable within the scope of my limitations. Thanks!

[Christian Miller]

This has been an entertaining and informative thread for me. I haven't been playing jazz that long (9 years) and started late in life, so I'll only get so far, which is better than nowhere at all. I have the David Baker vols 1&2. I didn't bond with Vol 1 (bebop scales). Vol 2 is a compendium of turnarounds. After having worked through the entire book, I don't think I ever used one of them. As for BH, his concepts are well beyond my grasp. (One of my favorite pianists, though, along with Hank Jones.)

My goal in jazz has been to be able to play something that sounds like "jazz" and feels like "jazz." Who knows, maybe I'm the Tiny Grimes of my era? When I read through a thread like this one, it is so far beyond my ability to comprehend that I don't know where, how, or why to begin. (No disparagement implied or intended.) So with some basic CST and a blues background I was at this level of development about six months ago. Not the best, not the worst, but I think people in a night club could get with it, which is what it's about for me:

Sounding good man, I agree with what others have said.

[buduranus2]

Sounding good man, I agree with what others have said.

Thanks so much, Christian. I'm a long-time lurker but an infrequent poster, for no other reason than the level of discourse on the site is typically beyond my comprehension. I want to take this opportunity to honor your willingness to share your expertise through your many posts and videos. Many thanks!

[Bobby Timmons]

buduranus, I think you have Dunning Kruger.. In the good way lol.

[buduranus2]

buduranus, I think you have Dunning Kruger.. In the good way lol.

Man, you really took me out to the deep end of the pool with that one. That said, what a nice compliment!

"The Dunning-Kruger effect occurs when a person's lack of knowledge and skill in a certain area causes them to overestimate their own competence. By contrast, this effect also drives those who excel in a given area to think the task is simple for everyone, leading them to underestimate their abilities."

[Bobby Timmons]

[pamosmusic]

You're very generous and your analogy is well-received. With me it's more like tools in the toolbox. Back when cars were mechanical there was a lot you could do with just a screwdriver. So I try to make the most of the few I've got and be comfortable within the scope of my limitations. Thanks!

Im referring to how this thread might seem confusing. The concept isn’t terribly confusing, I’m just pulling all the parts out and shuffling them around or whatever at the moment.

[GuyBoden]

Today, I've been continuing with the Major Bebop Scale (BH half step Rule 1).

Similar rhythmic variations to Peter, but I'm using the Major Bebop scale (BH half step Rule 1), with simple examples for my level of ability.

I've notated the rhythmic variations. I'm repeatedly practicing each rhythmic variation in isolation, whilst concentrating on hearing how they sound.

See simple examples below:

[charlieparker]

Your praise is very meaningful to me, so my sincerest thanks and appreciaton for that. There are many players on this site whose knowledge of applied harmony is orders of magnitude beyond my capacity. But the great thing about (non-classical) music is that you don't have to be that good, just good enough. Best to you!

Putting it more plainly, I've gradually come around to the opinion that time feel, rhythm, and rhythmic ideas are the most important elements in jazz and note choices and harmony are of secondary importance.

Your time feel and groove is solid as a rock. It's something I need to improve big time.

[pamosmusic]

Putting it more plainly, I've gradually come around to the opinion that time feel, rhythm, and rhythmic ideas are the most important elements in jazz and note choices and harmony are of secondary importance.

Your time feel and groove is solid as a rock. It's something I need to improve big time.

For what it’s worth, part of why I’m trying to spend so much time organizing these this way is that Ive found they are more useful as a rhythmic tool than as a melodic one.

Barry I think was pretty explicit about that, at least to hear Alan and others with more experience describe it. For example the use of “added note” rules rather than “half step” rules, because the rhythmic displacement is more important than the note you’re using.

I would say that there is a lot of rhythmic stuff that we hear in jazz that is somewhat harder to sort out than just the space between notes.

The actual rhythms are important. But time feel is a bit trickier than that. How the notes relate to the beat obviously, but also the overall effect of what you play. So rhythmic tension and resolution on top of the harmonic tension and resolution that were used to talking about. And that over the barline thing is sort of a bit of both. And it’s really simple and kind of built into these rules and the line building they lead to.

[Tal_175]

Another important point I think is that these types of lines sound good in high tempos. The sweet spot is between 160bpm and 220 bpm IMO.

This is something easy to miss. When people work on licks they don't take into account the context in which these licks were played by the original musicians. The tempo of the tune viscerally shapes the line ideas/habits as well. A ballad line is not a fast swing line played in slow motion.

[Christian Miller]

One thing I would say about the added note stuff is that when I practiced it a lot, I ended up playing a lot of phrases that sounded quite 'square' and on the beat at higher tempos. This might be a function of the way I practiced it.

My way of dealing with this was to focus on simpler note choices with more interesting rhythms. And this of course is something Parker was doing as well.

[callouscallus]

Now that was a witty response!

He's just reading the room

[joe2758]

One thing I would say about the added note stuff is that when I practiced it a lot, I ended up playing a lot of phrases that sounded quite 'square' and on the beat at higher tempos. This might be a function of the way I practiced it.

My way of dealing with this was to focus on simpler note choices with more interesting rhythms. And this of course is something Parker was doing as well.

Is that because you were practicing them straight? in the classes they are played very squarely and makes one think that is how they should be practiced. But BH also says "practice your playing, don't play your practicing," which I take as practice them with the same feel as you would use in a solo. When I was into this stuff about 8 years ago I practiced everything straight. relearning it now I practice them swinging and with slurs as best as I can and it doesn't sound square to me. everything else I play sounds square to me lol

edit it may have been "practice your playing, don't practice your practicing"

[pamosmusic]

One thing I would say about the added note stuff is that when I practiced it a lot, I ended up playing a lot of phrases that sounded quite 'square' and on the beat at higher tempos. This might be a function of the way I practiced it.

My way of dealing with this was to focus on simpler note choices with more interesting rhythms. And this of course is something Parker was doing as well.

Yeah I like to frame this with Sonny’s “St Thomas” solo, where it’s this incredible motivic development, interspersed with his killer bop vocabulary. And it feels like a sharp line between the two. Of course it’s not, but it at least makes it apparent that these sorts of lines are incredibly useful, but are definitely not everything.

[pamosmusic]

Is that because you were practicing them straight? in the classes they are played very squarely and makes one think that is how they should be practiced. But BH also says "practice your playing, don't play your practicing," which I take as practice them with the same feel as you would use in a solo. When I was into this stuff about 8 years ago I practiced everything straight. relearning it now I practice them swinging and with slurs as best as I can and it doesn't sound square to me. everything else I play sounds square to me lol

edit it may have been "practice your playing, don't practice your practicing"

I imagine one could do that disappearing note exercise with any one of these lines. Not just the basic run. That might be an interesting thing?

[Christian Miller]

Is that because you were practicing them straight? in the classes they are played very squarely and makes one think that is how they should be practiced. But BH also says "practice your playing, don't play your practicing," which I take as practice them with the same feel as you would use in a solo. When I was into this stuff about 8 years ago I practiced everything straight. relearning it now I practice them swinging and with slurs as best as I can and it doesn't sound square to me. everything else I play sounds square to me lol

edit it may have been "practice your playing, don't practice your practicing"

No I swing them, it's just everything ends up being on the beat because that's the way they kind of are. We always end up coming out on the beat.

I mean, Barry didn't play with much inequality in his eight notes anyway, so his swing comes more from the beat placement. He lags the beat by just the right amount and then the triplets are right on the beat. So you get a push/pull. His swing feel is one of my favourites, BTW. He was always on about the need for a rhythm section when playing the Improvisation class, so we could feel it against a quarter pulse. I played rhythm guitar for the class a couple of time, which he liked, but I missed out on playing the material.

They are meant to be connecting tissue, I don't think you want too much of this stuff without other material.

[joe2758]

"connecting tissue" i like that

[joe2758]

Christian would you say the classes playing the scales lagged behind the beat in the right way, or were they right with you on the beat?

[GuyBoden]

Using only the Bebop Major (BH half step Rule 1) over a ii-V-I progression.

You can create some very mundane ii-V-I lines.

Evidence below:


Edit: It's early days in my exploration, I'm very interested in a long term outcome.

[Christian Miller]

Christian would you say the classes playing the scales lagged behind the beat in the right way, or were they right with you on the beat?

Tbf when Barry played them. When 30+ workshop attendees played them, they usually lagged in the wrong way haha. That’s why Barry wanted the rhythm section.

Tbf big bands can often have the same issues

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[buduranus2]

Putting it more plainly, I've gradually come around to the opinion that time feel, rhythm, and rhythmic ideas are the most important elements in jazz and note choices and harmony are of secondary importance.

Your time feel and groove is solid as a rock. It's something I need to improve big time.

Man, you're gonna make this old man blush. FWIW I'd like to share my perspectives on your comments. Is there a way I can PM you? I don't want to bog down the thread.

[charlieparker]

Man, you're gonna make this old man blush. FWIW I'd like to share my perspectives on your comments. Is there a way I can PM you? I don't want to bog down the thread.

Feel free to. Always interested in other people's opinions.

[AllanAllen]

Just bog down the thread, it's what makes forums interesting.