Joe Pass's Picking Technique

[James W]

I haven't yet watched this collaboration by Levi Clay and Troy Grady, but I suspect it'll be good and will interest people here.

[m_d]

Yep, it is very good. Proof if there was any doubt that Troy's concepts work for jazz guitar flawlessly.

[Christian Miller]

Troy's concept?

No.

It's classic rest stroke picking. Which is what Django did. And quite a few others.

[MarkRhodes]

Excellent presentation.

"The moves are always memorized. That's how the body works."

[charlieparker]

Did Tal also use rest stroke picking?

[James W]

Did Tal also use rest stroke picking?

Yes.

[AndyV]

Really well done and explained. Thanks for the link!

[James W]

Yeah I was already aware of Pass's basic picking technique.

Still, it was interesting nonetheless and introduced a few things along the way that I wasn't so aware of, such as the 'failure to USX' thing.

[Christian Miller]

Now I haven't watched the whole thing, but one thing that jumps out at me is that I think Troy is overly preoccupied with the nature of the upstroke and the angle. I think this is because he is looking at it from the perspective of playing fast, and because his thing is obviously the mechanics of string crossing. You can take the boy out of shred...

But that's not the principle reason for learning this technique - at least I don't think it was for Joe's generation. Furthermore I think string cross and the picking angle are downstream from the motion and physical sensation of playing the downstroke properly.

A piece of context that might not be obvious to today's primarily electric/amplified players is that the main reason anyone would play a downward rest stroke is for projection. Gypsy jazz players are some of the only guitarists - apart from bluegrass players - who still play single note solos unamplified. The American players of the 30's also largely used some variant of this technique for the same reasons. For instance, George Van Eps describes it in his Guitar Method. So this is something that is very present when you practice on acoustic guitar, and you will know immediately if you are coming off the technique because you will lose your sound.

Because you are focusing on the sound and connection of the downstroke, this is self reinforcing.

I learned this style of picking (in my 30s) from a video series by a Gypsy jazz guitarist called Yaakov Hotter. At the time I bought them from Djangobooks but there are available for free on YouTube now. I never had any issues with 'failure to USX' FWIW.

I would recommend Yaakov's lessons, they built the basis of my technique.

It's been a minute, so I might be misremembering, but a couple of things I remember from those videos
1) It's all about the DOWNSTROKE
2) The upstroke has a fundamentally different motion to the downstroke.

I credit those videos with my ability to use this technique. Later, I saw Troy's older vides and realised he was describing in minutiae what I was already doing thanks to Yaakov.

BTW my technique these days is somewhat more relaxed that a full broken wrist GJ right hand and resembles Joe's more than Yaakov's. Electric guitar has ruined me lol.

Gypsy jazz players have been successfully learning this technique for decades, to the point where it is comparatively rare to find a player in that community that doesn't use it.

[Christian Miller]

A possible historical context - I have heard it said in the GJ community that the Django's downward rest stroke technique came from classical mandolin technique, that he was taught when learning the banjo as a kid (Django started on banjo).

As far as the American players go, this would also make sense, as the early archtop guitars were designed for mandolin orchestra, and I could imagine the technique transferred over.

I do believe rest strokes are taught in classical mandolin. But then, the only classical mandolin student I know was taught floating hand alternate picking, so hey ho. Maybe someone more knowledgable about this can weigh in.

Obviously many stringed instrument traditions have a version of rest stroke picking technique, including Oud and Tres Cubano. It's likely these were independent rediscoveries of the same technique, because it's an obvious solution to the problem of 'how do I make the most sound on a plucked string instrument?'

[djg]

A possible historical context that I've found very hard to verify - I have heard it said in the GJ community that the Django's downward rest stroke technique came from classical mandolin technique, that he was taught when learning the banjo as a kid (Django started on banjo).

denis chang has traced the technique back to old mandolin books. it's probably ancient.

[Christian Miller]

denis chang has traced the technique back to old mandolin books. it's probably ancient.

Didn’t the ancient Sumerians have their own version of the banjo?


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[Christian Miller]

denis chang has traced the technique back to old mandolin books. it's probably ancient.

I edited my post because I did a google search and found a link right away that I’d never seen before in all those years. Typical! Haha

Chang’s your man


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[djg]

Didn’t the ancient Sumerians have their own version of the banjo?

they did go under, so probably yes?

i found a few short videos from Yaakov Hotter but not a whole course on youtube.

[olejason]

denis chang has traced the technique back to old mandolin books. it's probably ancient.

I doubt there is any written provenance to prove it but I've always assumed the oud played a role in this as well. Right hand oud technique is very similar to what is used in Gypsy jazz. Of course oud technique also was probably adapted from even earlier instruments as you've suggested.

[James W]

Sarod right hand technique too from what I've seen.

[Mick-7]

Sarod right hand technique too from what I've seen.

Yes, and it's at least 200 years old, much older than the banjo, although it's essentially a giant banjo. They are extremely loud.

[Christian Miller]

Depends on your definition of banjo


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[Mick-7]

Depends on your definition of banjo

The construction of the sarod and banjo is similar, both have sound-bowls covered by a resonating membrane, an animal skin or thin metal sheet in the case of the sarod, and plastic and metal sheets in the case of the banjo (I presume they used an animal skin before plastic was invented). Both the sarod and banjo have 4 main strings, with the sarod having a set of sympathetic strings, and the banjo having a 5th string that is not attached to the head stock. The necks and tuning pegs are of course different.

[charlieparker]

Yes.

So we have Tal, Pass, and Christian. Do people consider Benson picking in this family?

[PickingMyEars]

The American players of the 30's also largely used some variant of this technique for the same reasons. For instance, George Van Eps describes it in his Guitar Method. So this is something that is very present when you practice on acoustic guitar, and you will know immediately if you are coming off the technique because you will lose your sound.

James Chirillo got me into that Van Eps ebook. Chirillo was ALL ABOUT tone during our lessons. Listening to him play up close and even on recordings, he has a pristine sound that cuts through.

I developed a floating hand right hand with that ebook. I liked the sound, but I had less control--especially at faster tempos. Thing is, I still want to keep the picking technique even as I play from a lightly anchored stance. I did the Troy Mechanics thing and he seemed to contradict the rest-stroke technique I was learning. Troy said I should use my wrist, and no forearm--anchor from the palm instead. I wanted a stronger rest stroke to match the sound I had in my head.

Troy's done a lot of great work labeling the mechanics of guitar picking. That said, he's not everything when it comes to guitar picking technique. Be great to have another jazz guitarist talk about picking, besides Benson and his students. My vote goes to Joe Cohn, that cat is a monster--and he plays multiple instruments to boot!

[James W]

So we have Tal, Pass, and Christian. Do people consider Benson picking in this family?

I think so!

[Christian Miller]

So we have Tal, Pass, and Christian. Do people consider Benson picking in this family?

Kinda? Different pick hold, same basic idea.

I would consider Wes part of the family

[Christian Miller]

The construction of the sarod and banjo is similar, both have sound-bowls covered by a resonating membrane, an animal skin or thin metal sheet in the case of the sarod, and plastic and metal sheets in the case of the banjo (I presume they used an animal skin before plastic was invented). Both the sarod and banjo have 4 main strings, with the sarod having a set of sympathetic strings, and the banjo having a 5th string that is not attached to the head stock. The necks and tuning pegs are of course different.

The Ultimate Ancestor of the Modern Banjo?

Maybe a common ancestor in Mesopotamia?

The Sarod I believe is derived from Persian instruments.

[m_d]

Teaching concepts of picking technique, that is. Of course he didn't invent the rest stroke.

Troy's concept?

No.

It's classic rest stroke picking. Which is what Django did. And quite a few others.