Joe Pass's Picking Technique

[Christian Miller]

I'm surprised no one talked about how these techniques relate to hybrid picking. Or it's possible I missed it. Long thread.

As the thread is nominally about how Joe Pass played the guitar, probably didn’t seem relevant? Did Joe hybrid pick?

I use hybrid a lot these days. It is great in some ways, but has annoying issues.

I would say that rest stroke picking - at least the type of identified here - is not compatible with hybrid picking. Mostly it’s because picking from the elbow or wrist rotation just puts the whole hand out of position and the position, so you can’t play simultaneous notes, and your starting and finishing position will also change depending on the string.

OTOH string skipping is far less of an issue with USX style picking than conventional alt picking styles so it’s more the sort of thing you’d want for chords and counterpoint etc.

So I find myself switching. You can absolutely do it in the same right hand position, but you need to pick from the finger joints.

It’s more compatible with Chuck Wayne style picking or circle picking which of course is what you see people like Pasquale doing. But then you squash the dynamic range.

That said I think Django may have hybrid picked chords sometimes. An example is Tears, where the chords don’t sound strummed.


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[John A.]

As the thread is nominally about how Joe Pass played the guitar, probably didn’t seem relevant? Did Joe hybrid pick?

I'm tempted to say he must have at least occasionally when he didn't bother to stash the pick in his mouth, but I don't find any evidence of it in videos. It sort looks like he's hybrid picking sometimes because his fingerstyle "grip" looks the same as his picking grip (thumb and index finger close together), but he's not actually holding a pick.

I use hybrid a lot these days. It is great in some ways, but has annoying issues.

I would say that rest stroke picking - at least the type of identified here - is not compatible with hybrid picking. Mostly it’s because picking from the elbow or wrist rotation just puts the whole hand out of position and the position, so you can’t play simultaneous notes, and your starting and finishing position will also change depending on the string.

OTOH string skipping is far less of an issue with USX style picking than conventional alt picking styles so it’s more the sort of thing you’d want for chords and counterpoint etc.

So I find myself switching. You can absolutely do it in the same right hand position, but you need to pick from the finger joints.

It’s more compatible with Chuck Wayne style picking or circle picking which of course is what you see people like Pasquale doing. But then you squash the dynamic range.

That said I think Django may have hybrid picked chords sometimes. An example is Tears, where the chords don’t sound strummed.


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I mainly comp hybrid and solo with a pick, though not exclusively either way, and sometimes I stash the pick in my mouth and go all fingers. I started out on nylon string as a kid (classical and folk/fingerpicking, though all at a very beginner level), stopped playing, then started again in my teens, initially fingerstyle blues, but still on nylon string. Then came electric, picking, and steel string acoustic. So blending has always seemed natural to me, and I've never really given it much thought.

As near as I can tell, Pasquale only hybrid picks when comping or playing chord melody, and not when single-line soloing (other than for the odd chord stab here and there, which he doesn't do much of when soloing over other chord instruments). This is in contrast to people who hybrid pick while soloing, mainly for texture (e.g., Sco).

[grahambop]

I saw Joe Pass playing solo guitar several times at Ronnie Scotts from quite close quarters, and I don’t recall seeing him hybrid pick.

Mostly he seemed to play fingerstyle and only used a pick for one or two fast tunes (he nearly always played a really fast I Got Rhythm ‘party-piece’, and as I recall he usually rummaged in his jacket pocket to find a pick!)

At least that’s how I remember it, but it was a long time ago.

[CliffR]

Beat me to it! I was just about to post this video.

I have his book, but I admit to not getting much from it. I don't think a book can really teach you to pick in this style, at least not the mechanics/technique of it.

Anyone else had a go at learning either of the licks Denis presents? I've got one on the fingers and plan on working on it as a long-term, back-boiler sort of thing. Some great language in there.

[James W]

Cecil Alexander's plectrum technique is similar to Benson's. Here he is apparently demonstrating its compatibility with hybrid picking.

Alright here we go - YouTube

[joe2758]

I did a quick video. Not sure if I'll release this one or not (I might redo it) but it covers the basic points I'm making, and it may better to see what I mean than read a load of description.

So are basically all the down strokes rest strokes? Even descending? I'm all for down strokes as much as possible, but that seems inefficient save for volume production.

The sense I got from CVH videos is there is quite a lot of what he calls "half rest strokes" (shrug), which is basically the opposite forearm rotation motion as the upstroke you showed.

Not to always use some other authority to make my point, it's just that is where I learned it and it feels right in my practice so far (only a month or so, there's that).

Anyway, I'm having some success with "downstroke technique" as opposed to "rest stroke technique"

Edit: at 11:50 how he alternates picking
23 mins "half rest stroke"
31 mins triplets: half vs rest stroke

https://www.youtube.com/live/wPLoc4r...wEb6DS8ZVTbg8v

[Christian Miller]

So are basically all the down strokes rest strokes? Even descending? I'm all for down strokes as much as possible, but that seems inefficient save for volume production.

It might seem that way, but it is not. It’s the basis of the technique

The sense I got from CVH videos is there is quite a lot of what he calls "half rest strokes" (shrug), which is basically the opposite forearm rotation motion as the upstroke you showed.

Not to always use some other authority to make my point, it's just that is where I learned it and it feels right in my practice so far (only a month or so, there's that).

Anyway, I'm having some success with "downstroke technique" as opposed to "rest stroke technique"

Edit: at 11:50 how he alternates picking
23 mins "half rest stroke"

https://www.youtube.com/live/wPLoc4r...wEb6DS8ZVTbg8v

This why teaching intelligent adults on the professions is profoundly frustrating. They are always trying to think around things. Apprenticing oneself does not come naturally.

So it almost comes as a bit of affront if I was to say - NO. Please stop second guessing the process.

Instead, practice the technique properly as it is explained by a suitably qualified teacher.

As you speed things up, optimisations happen. This will happen without you being conscious of them.

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[joe2758]

It might seem that way, but it is not. It’s the basis of the technique



This is one reason why teaching intelligent adults is profoundly frustrating.

Stop second guessing the process and practice the exercises. It’s what I did.

As you speed things up, optimisations happen. This will happen without you being consciou of them.


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I can see why it's frustrating. I generally follow what a teacher says for quite a while before passing judgement.

It's just that I saw the CVH one first, so I'm already elbow deep in that. So, it's working and is a little different to what has been discussed so I'm just chiming in

just maybe take a look at the timr stamps thats all

[Christian Miller]

I can see why it's frustrating. I generally follow what a teacher says for quite a while before passing judgement.

It's just that I saw the CVH one first, so I'm already elbow deep in that. So, it's working and is a little different to what has been discussed so I'm just chiming in

just maybe take a look at the timr stamps thats all

Well, if it's working, carry on doing it. Maybe get lessons with Christiaan. In fact, I think the change over can be quite a difficult time. It would be helpful to have an encouraging and knowledgable teacher.

I think the issue with a lot of learners is too much chatter from things like YouTube. Many voices saying slightly different things. You actually have to shut it down and focus. I think it's very hard for adults to do this, espcially when the new technique feels weird and uncontrolled.

[joe2758]

I think the issue with a lot of learners is too much chatter from things like YouTube. Many voices saying slightly different things. You actually have to shut it down and focus.

But what makes you think I'm not? I do those exercises as written for half my practice time. I'm not confused as to what to do, I'm just joining the conversation albeit from a non-teacher perspective

[djg]

So are basically all the down strokes rest strokes? Even descending? I'm all for down strokes as much as possible, but that seems inefficient save for volume production.

for me all downstrokes are reststrokes. but the reststroke serves two different purposes. from low to high you land on the next string and play "through" this string. if you go from high to low or stay on the same string you can't play through the string. but since the reststroke gives energy to the landing string you can use this energy to bounce back onto a lower or the same string.

[joe2758]

for me all downstrokes are reststrokes. but the reststroke serves two different purposes. from low to high you land on the next string and play "through" this string. if you go from high to low or stay on the same string you can't play through the string. but since the reststroke gives energy to the landing string you can use this energy to bounce back onto a lower or the same string.

Ok, that makes sense. So if I understand, if you are going from higher to lower string, you still follow through to the next string, but that almost help spring your hand back up?

[Christian Miller]

But what makes you think I'm not? I do those exercises as written for half my practice time. I'm not confused as to what to do, I'm just joining the conversation albeit from a non-teacher perspective

Oh right, I'm not really very interested in this specific thing then.

[joe2758]

Oh right, I'm not really very interested in this specific thing then.

lol I think I need to sit back and reflect on why everyone here hates me

[Christian Miller]

lol I think I need to sit back and reflect on why everyone here hates me

Haha, it’s entirely personal.

In seriousness - I’m just at a point with it where I’m not really thinking about the minutiae of right hand technique. If it ain’t broke…


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[Cunamara]

There is a certain amount of technique we need to learn to execute the music we are trying to play. There is also a level of focus on technique that ends up being a lot like the centipede trying to figure out how to run. We can often do it just fine until we start thinking about it.

Speaking only for myself, the thing that holds me back is not my left hand or right hand technique. I can practice and optimize that till the cows come home, but it's not going to make me play a good solo or comp well. Understanding the conception and the musical intent of what I'm trying to play is what will help with that and that is to a large extent independent of technique.

[djg]

Ok, that makes sense. So if I understand, if you are going from higher to lower string, you still follow through to the next string, but that almost help spring your hand back up?

not sure if i understand you. the reststroke always lands on the higher string regardless of direction. from high to low there is no follow through

[joe2758]

not sure if i understand you. the reststroke always lands on the higher string regardless of direction. from high to low there is no follow through

Yeah my post was weird.

I guess I'm trying to get to the bottom of when someone plays a rest stroke from B string to rest onto the E string, then the next note is a rest stroke form the G string to rest onto the B string. Double downstrokes

Myself as an example, I can play rest strokes from all the high to low strings, but I can play them much easier and faster by I guess what you might call a downward free stroke.

The benefit of rest strokes for ascending of course is clear and that's what I do also. Descending say a B to G string I might land on a rest stroke on the G, but doing a rest stroke on the B first feels awkward.

I can even see the benefit of rest stroke on playing one string. It's just this one scenario, otherwise I am training myself same as Christian's video.

And just to be clear I don't have some sort of weird technique hyperfixation, I'm trying to get it consistent for the first time now that I have reached my max of not thinking about it.

Just feel like I get accused of being sucked into "minutiae" or whatever, I'm not sure why. I'd rather swallow a live sparrow than watch a troy grady video

[pamosmusic]

I guess I'm trying to get to the bottom of when someone plays a rest stroke from B string to rest onto the E string, then the next note is a rest stroke form the G string to rest onto the B string. Double downstrokes

Can you give an example of this?

I can’t think of a situation where this would be an efficient way to pick those two notes, unless it was slow enough that the rest stroke wouldn’t be prohibitive anyway.

Just feel like I get accused of being sucked into "minutiae" or whatever, I'm not sure why. I'd rather swallow a live sparrow than watch a troy grady video

That is vivid. And minutiae is all good, but I think maybe this post is a good example of the downside. We’re talking about a hypothetical picking pattern that I’m skeptical really comes up all that often. It might be an interesting problem, but also might not be a particularly efficient use of brain power.

[joe2758]

Can you give an example of this?

I can’t think of a situation where this would be an efficient way to pick those two notes, unless it was slow enough that the rest stroke wouldn’t be prohibitive anyway.



That is vivid. And minutiae is all good, but I think maybe this post is a good example of the downside. We’re talking about a hypothetical picking pattern that I’m skeptical really comes up all that often. It might be an interesting problem, but also might not be a particularly efficient use of brain power.

But isn't picking downward on all changes of strings the main thing that is separating this technique from economy and other styles? It's the root challenge of the method in the same way other methods have their downsides.

so it occurs every time I play one string to lower string in which it's not preceded by an upstroke, so it's not uncommon.

If I understand Christian it was not only a downstroke in this scenario, but a rest stroke...and my point is only "it's awkward why not at least make it a free stroke"

[joe2758]

example would be on string B frets 3 down,2 up, 1 down (should this be free or rest) then g string note down

[pamosmusic]

But isn't picking downward on all changes of strings the main thing that is separating this technique from economy and other styles? It's the root challenge of the method in the same way other methods have their downsides.

so it occurs every time I play one string to lower string in which it's not preceded by an upstroke, so it's not uncommon.

If I understand Christian it was not only a downstroke in this scenario, but a rest stroke...and my point is only "it's awkward why not at least make it a free stroke"

Ah dunno. Fair enough.

[djg]

I can’t think of a situation where this would be an efficient way to pick those two notes, unless it was slow enough that the rest stroke wouldn’t be prohibitive anyway.

it is most common in gypsy jazz and benson picking. the rule is pretty straight forward. always change strings on a downstroke. of course there are tons of exceptions and all roads lead to rome, yada yada. miles okazaki is a benson picker who changes a lot using upstrokes. his paradiddle system is based on that.

[djg]

We’re talking about a hypothetical picking pattern that I’m skeptical really comes up all that often. It might be an interesting problem, but also might not be a particularly efficient use of brain power.

the jump e-string, g-string b-string is basically honeysuckle rose.

[joe2758]

I skimmed through the Joe Pass vid and the topic is at 33:00, he even describes the double downs as light and springy