Joe Pass's Picking Technique

[charlieparker]

TBH? I don't think they'd play something like that. At least not in improvisation.

That should be a G, i.e., E C A G F#. But, I guess I should look at players who use that technique to see what they play. Do Benson and Rest Stroke players use similar vocab?

[Christian Miller]

That should be a G, i.e., E C A G F#. But, I guess I should look at players who use that technique to see what they play. Do Benson and Rest Stroke players use similar vocab?

Not quite?

I mean these are all questions that are perhaps best answered with transcription.

GJ vocab is typically heavy on the triadic arpeggios, m6 arpeggios, passing tones, chromatic runs, dim 7 chords and so on. I feel Django was really diverse in what he actually played, but that's what I would focus on if someone came through my door wanting to play GJ.

Benson on the other hand is more rooted in the blues and bebop. Things are more sort twisty and direction changing I suppose. So things like pentatonic scales work incredibly well with DWPS picking. He does this a lot, and arpeggios and so on are also obviously a big part of modern jazz vocab but they don't quite get use in the same big sweeping shapes as in GJ stuff.

But one thing you always see both players do is descend using 2 nps shapes. So instead of playing a descending m6 arpeggio, at speed Django will often choose to play a minor pentatonic with a 6th instead. because the fingerings work much better.

But yeah GJ players are quite often big into their Benson for this reason. Birelli can play in his style.

[Mick-7]

That should be a G, i.e., E C A G F#. But, I guess I should look at players who use that technique to see what they play. Do Benson and Rest Stroke players use similar vocab?

I'd normally play that with all up strokes except for the last G (on the D string), a la Frank Gambale, i.e., down strokes going up, upstrokes going down. The first note could also be a downstroke depending on where I was coming from. Wouldn't want my technique to dictate my vocabulary, the reverse should be true.

[charlieparker]

Not quite?

I mean these are all questions that are perhaps best answered with transcription.

GJ vocab is typically heavy on the triadic arpeggios, m6 arpeggios, passing tones, chromatic runs, dim 7 chords and so on. I feel Django was really diverse in what he actually played, but that's what I would focus on if someone came through my door wanting to play GJ.

Benson on the other hand is more rooted in the blues and bebop. Things are more sort twisty and direction changing I suppose. So things like pentatonic scales work incredibly well with DWPS picking. He does this a lot, and arpeggios and so on are also obviously a big part of modern jazz vocab but they don't quite get use in the same big sweeping shapes as in GJ stuff.

But one thing you always see both players do is descend using 2 nps shapes. So instead of playing a descending m6 arpeggio, at speed Django will often choose to play a minor pentatonic with a 6th instead. because the fingerings work much better.

But yeah GJ players are quite often big into their Benson for this reason. Birelli can play in his style.

I wasn't referring to GJ players which is why I specifically said rest stroke pickers.

I was thinking more about jazz guys like Charlie Christian, Tal Farlow, and Pass. The question was also more around whether the vocab is interchangeable between those two picking methods. But it seems like the answer is a yes.

[Cunamara]

Five pages. Wow! Probably most of this could be cleared up in a single in-person lesson between any two people on the forum. This stuff is just hard to describe in writing. "Oh, *that's* what you're doing? I thought you were describing *this.*"

Seems to me that the best way to pick is the one that works for you. Everybody's skeletal and muscular structure is a little different, everybody's nervous system is a little different and we probably all need to adapt any picking techniques to ourselves. Getting locked into some religious vision of sweep picking or Benson picking or alternate picking or whatever is probably ultimately not very helpful. Try a bunch of different techniques and see what works for you. What's the easiest and most efficient for you? What gets the tone you want? What lets you play in time? Maybe you need multiple techniques for different uses.

Like Joe. Sometime alternate, sometimes rest strokes, sometimes economy; sometimes thumb, sometimes i-m, sometimes p-i-m-a...

[Christian Miller]

I wasn't referring to GJ players which is why I specifically said rest stroke pickers.

I was thinking more about jazz guys like Charlie Christian, Tal Farlow, and Pass. The question was also more around whether the vocab is interchangeable between those two picking methods. But it seems like the answer is a yes.

Obviously there’s a lot of overlap, but Charlie Christian is different to Joe Pass


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[djg]

I

The main issue as I see it for straight ahead jazz player is one note a string crossing, for instance in descending arpeggios. Everything else we can handle with slurring, and actually it is stylistically correct to do so - pure picking doesn't tend to sound good for straight ahead jazz guitar. This unavoidable in some heads, so you need a way of dealing with it. I think all GJ players who have crossed over to other styles of jazz have found work arounds so they can play a wider repertoire. For instance, Birelli does quite a bit of two way sweeping.

i got denis changs book on picking and the first actual example he gives is a bop line, typical of grant green or pat. he then points out how GJ picking is not the proper technique for these kind of lines. talking about a pedagogical approach, lol. unfortunately the whole book is a bit like that. somewhat unscripted and rambling. it works great for youtube (he's one of the few youtubers i watch, mainly for confirmation bias) but the book is actually not very helpful right now.

so i'm working on my downstrokes and i can already see why some gypsy pickers have holes below the high string. i'll probably get used to double downstrokes. but even with benson picking i never applied the rule of always changing on a downstroke from high to low. i did a lot of paradiddle stuff in the past so i usually change strings with an upstroke when going from high to low. is that two-way sweeping? i'm sure there is a fancy name for it that includes at least one X.

[Christian Miller]

i got denis changs book on picking and the first actual example he gives is a bop line, typical of grant green or pat. he then points out how GJ picking is not the proper technique for these kind of lines. talking about a pedagogical approach, lol. unfortunately the whole book is a bit like that. somewhat unscripted and rambling. it works great for youtube (he's one of the few youtubers i watch, mainly for confirmation bias) but the book is actually not very helpful right now.

so i'm working on my downstrokes and i can already see why some gypsy pickers have holes below the high string. i'll probably get used to double downstrokes. but even with benson picking i never applied the rule of always changing on a downstroke from high to low. i did a lot of paradiddle stuff in the past so i usually change strings with an upstroke when going from high to low. is that two-way sweeping? i'm sure there is a fancy name for it that includes at least one X.

Haha that doesn’t surprise me. I like DC, but his videos clock in on the long side.


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[djg]

Haha that doesn’t surprise me. I like DC, but his videos clock in on the long side.

i dont mind that too much. i wish we'd have had stuff like that in the 80s when i started learning. being close to the gypsy scene he knows how the apprenticeship system works, how you learn tunes and what is actually important for the bandstand. in the youtube world you never know if a vid is worth your time and usually it isnt. i rarely take that leap of faith anymore. i'd always recommend his channel. chang's ramblings are full of gold for students. people pay good money to get that kind of information from 1:1 lessons like we give and there will be rambling as well...

i will definitely check out your stuff on gypsy picking. i'm promised "the most important technical drill in gypsy picking". we'll see how that one goes

[Christian Miller]

i dont mind that too much. i wish we'd have had stuff like that in the 80s when i started learning. being close to the gypsy scene he knows how the apprenticeship system works, how you learn tunes and what is actually important for the bandstand. in the youtube world you never know if a vid is worth your time and usually it isnt. i rarely take that leap of faith anymore. i'd always recommend his channel. chang's ramblings are full of gold for students. people pay good money to get that kind of information from 1:1 lessons like we give and there will be rambling as well...

Yeah Denis knows his stuff.

i will definitely check out your stuff on gypsy picking. i'm promised "the most important technical drill in gypsy picking". we'll see how that one goes

Blimey that one is out of the ark... I can't vouch for its contents.

[Alter]

I also find the pick tip to be very important in all this rest stroke / pick slanting / fast picking thing. If one uses the round side of the pick, or a pick with a very round tip, for me personally it is a lot easier to do all that, especially the escape upstroke, and the muting and crossing of the strings.

I once saw the pick Stochello Rosenberg was using at a festival, and it was a typical Wegen pick, but half of it was missing from all this playing, so the actual tip side was rounder than the other ones! Lots of players play this way. You just have to adapt a bit, as the feel changes a bit, and the sound quite a lot (actually becomes jazzier).

[grahambop]

In the old video Joe Pass seems to be using a normal-sized pick, but in later years he used a smaller half-pick as shown below, this photo was from an article in a magazine. I think he used to cut them in half or something!

I don’t know whether this would have affected his picking technique in any way though.

[charlieparker]

In the old video Joe Pass seems to be using a normal-sized pick, but in later years he used a smaller half-pick as shown below, this photo was from an article in a magazine. I think he used to cut them in half or something!

I don’t know whether this would have affected his picking technique in any way though.

Graham you are an alternate picker? At the end of the day, I don't think it matters that much and it's more about your ear and ideas. There is just so much diversity in effective techniques.

[grahambop]

Graham you are an alternate picker? At the end of the day, I don't think it matters that much and it's more about your ear and ideas. There is just so much diversity in effective techniques.

I have never given much thought to how I pick, I just did what seemed most natural to me, I think I have always focused more on getting the left hand to work properly and let the picking hand just follow. I guess I basically alternate pick but I also incorporate quite a bit of LH legato stuff. That probably just came about from listening to how Wes Montgomery phrased, and also how horn players articulate, I was just copying them.

I’m not that bothered about trying to play fast, really.

[djg]

floating benson gypsy picking

[James W]

Denis Chang talking about picking technique.

[charlieparker]

floating benson gypsy picking

Don't know what to make of this? Best of both worlds?

[charlieparker]

Denis Chang talking about picking technique.

Denis seems like a guy who can play any technique. I am slightly wary of players who are that versatile teaching us strugglers.

[James W]

Denis seems like a guy who can play any technique. I am slightly wary of players who are that versatile teaching us strugglers.

Surely preferable to a teacher who is master of no technique?

[Christian Miller]

Denis seems like a guy who can play any technique. I am slightly wary of players who are that versatile teaching us strugglers.

Really? I'd be much more wary of someone how can only do one thing.

If someone is versatile and can do things a number of different ways, they've re-learned several times, probably in adult life. This means they have a much better chance of understanding the principles, the way a specific technique works, and how the learning process works.

Someone who can only do things one way is more likely to have arrived at their technique through happy accident that they can't break down, or learned in childhood and maybe can't recall the specifics so clearly.

[djg]

he has a new video on the topic out. it is very good. i've been suspecting for a while that he lurks here.

[charlieparker]

he has a new video on the topic out. it is very good. i've been suspecting for a while that he lurks here.

I assume you are talking about Denis and this video?

And Denis I have your Gypsy Jazz Picking book!

[James W]

I assume you are talking about Denis and this video?

And Denis I have your Gypsy Jazz Picking book!

Beat me to it! I was just about to post this video.

I have his book, but I admit to not getting much from it. I don't think a book can really teach you to pick in this style, at least not the mechanics/technique of it.

[JazzKatua]

The Tristano school AFAIK would encourage guitarists to play everything with downstrokes, so it could be worse. RobbieAG, who studied with Billy Bauer could chime in perhaps.

I think it's a good thing to try. Downstroke only 8ths at medium tempo should be perfectly possible.

Had to edit my previous post since I don't fully know how to reply on certain posts with quotes...

I LOVE the Tristano School approach for its open sound, but if you say it encourages ONLY downstrokes on guitar technique; I'd say it's outdated on a technical matter.

[Tal_175]

I'm surprised no one talked about how these techniques relate to hybrid picking. Or it's possible I missed it. Long thread.