Joe Pass's Picking Technique

[Christian Miller]

Oh, o.k., amazing how hair can change your appearance! And his wrist is not bent in the fusion video as it is in the acoustic guitar video.

Does the position of your wrist (or something else) change when you're playing an acoustic versus an electric guitar?

Yes, because I need to mute.

But I still play rest strokes. However - the angle becomes somewhat shallower too. That's why I think Troy's students have that 'failure to USX' problem. In GJ picking you go right into the guitar.

Tbh even when playing GJ I think my wrist is a bit shallower than the classic form Marbin demonstrates here. Joscho Stephan said in his interview with Troy that he felt it was hard for adults to get that ‘broken wrist’ angle.

[James W]

No, please read what I wrote. Teaching rest stroke picking was a solved problem. There was a tradition of how to teach it.

It's not that everyone had access to it .. but rather that there is school of rest stroke picking that goes back quite a ways. What I think what Troy has done is worked out some interesting properties of how the technique works, but these properties are not actually necessary for the student to know. Pay attention to how this technique is traditionally taught. It works. Troy will tell you how and why, but that may not be as important for the student, interesting though it is.

TBF to Troy, it seems like he is working this out. I think he's onto something and he is a very good communicator. There's a need to sit on all this info and work out how best to teach the student. Which is what a good teacher should do - it's why I watch his stuff, I want to be a better teacher. But research is not pedagogy. That's where it gets tricky.

People been teaching this style of picking for a very long time. The pedagogy seems sound to me, and the evidence is in the results.

So saith the GJ rest stroke proselytist.

In my experience the rest stroke in and of itself doesn't solve the string hopping problem. I discovered my own solution to that thank goodness. But this is why the pedagogical emphasis on the tremolo is there - tremolo is the simplest form of alternate picking; it is logical that before dealing with the complexities of changing string you acquire facility on one string first.

So, I can't say I'm aware of the rest stroke pedagogy of which you speak. But I did experiment with something like that for a while. I think I encountered two problems with it - firstly, as mentioned I've not really taken to wrist motion picking, and the fact that the pick follows a particular trajectory apparently doesn't necessarily ensure the motion itself is a smooth one. The second problem, and this no doubt is evidence of my failure, but there is some getting used to the rules built into the technique.

As it is, I now have a two way economy picking style so there is no problem with rules but for some things you need to be able to alternate pick smoothly.

Lastly, I feel the need to point out that while you are adamant that the GJ rest stroke system works and chide others as being part of the church of Troy Grady, actually Grady generally is descriptive rather than prescriptive and he sells no particular picking panacea, just info gleaned from a variety of different players. I didn't get far with his instructions for wrist based motion but found a few different aspects of his videos and ideas helpful, such as how efficient picking should feel, and a video on finger motion.

TBF I sort of suspect that I could get wrist motion together now that I have facility with another motion and know what to look for or how it is supposed to feel.

But anyway...

[m_d]

But I see that I've offended the church of Troy.

It's not that you're offending the church of Troy, it's that you're not assessing his material accurately. I'm aware you're a teacher too and have your own way of explaining things and that's perfectly fine.

Another thing, at the risk of sounding once again like a Troy zealot, which I don't mind at all - I find it very odd how many people seem to not appreciate what a truly badass player he is. He's also very humble about it. After all, this is a guy who received accolades from Dweezil Zappa - whom he joined on stage - and Steve Vai, not to mention all the world-class players he was able to convince to have their technique dissected under his camera. In that specific case, anyone else emulating that blazing Joe Pass chorus to perfection as he does would only get applause, and get asked "wow, good on you man, how did you do that"; "where can I find the transcription"?, etc. But he's a rock player - so it's not worthy of recognition. He doesn't intellectualize and wax poetic about music theory - he doesn't need to, for the simple fact that technical mastery blows the doors wide open of what he can achieve on the guitar - basically play anything. Wynton Marsalis said "Technique is like a guardian"; a guardian to musicianship, I think is literally what Wynton meant. Learning from the best is sound philosophy. But when the best are able to explain what they do - jump on the opportunity.

[Christian Miller]

So saith the GJ rest stroke proselytist.

In my experience the rest stroke in and of itself doesn't solve the string hopping problem. I discovered my own solution to that thank goodness. But this is why the pedagogical emphasis on the tremolo is there - tremolo is the simplest form of alternate picking; it is logical that before dealing with the complexities of changing string you acquire facility on one string first.

It might seem logical to you, but my experience has been that this follows at all. I've said this numerous times. I was able to play arpeggios and bebop lines before I mastered tremolo.

The hand works differently for tremolo.

So, I can't say I'm aware of the rest stroke pedagogy of which you speak. But I did experiment with something like that for a while.

Experimenting isn't enough. You kind of have to give yourself up to it and trust it for about a year while your chops fall apart and rebuild. Most people aren't up for that, and I get it. But if you find yourself a good Gypsy Jazz teacher (or Oud teacher, or Tres Cubano or whatever) they will absolutely be able to teach it to you. Many players play this way, but usually they do it because they want to play GJ.

I think for a bop or a modern player, it's a much tougher sell. I expect most rest stroke pickers working in bop etc have come from GJ, where it adapts well.

I think I encountered two problems with it - firstly, as mentioned I've not really taken to wrist motion picking, and the fact that the pick follows a particular trajectory apparently doesn't necessarily ensure the motion itself is a smooth one. The second problem, and this no doubt is evidence of my failure, but there is some getting used to the rules built into the technique.

As it is, I now have a two way economy picking style so there is no problem with rules but for some things you need to be able to alternate pick smoothly.

It might not be your failure, of course :-).

Lastly, I feel the need to point out that while you are adamant that the GJ rest stroke system works

I would say it is manifest in my neck of the woods.

and chide others as being part of the church of Troy Grady, actually Grady generally is descriptive rather than prescriptive and he sells no particular picking panacea, just info gleaned from a variety of different players. I didn't get far with his instructions for wrist based motion but found a few different aspects of his videos and ideas helpful, such as how efficient picking should feel, and a video on finger motion.

Yes Grady is descriptive. You experiences have been similar to mine. It is annoying to me to watch someone like Troy explain things in a way that I think is unhelpful while everyone blows smoke up his ass, but there you go. He's kinda on my turf.

OTOH I do think TG is aware of the difficulty of translating observations about picking into actual teaching. The danger here is everyone starts overthinking everything. But instruction on GJ is pretty simple. They teach it to 6 year olds. And actually I think rest strokes in general are helpful for kids. I teach them.

TBF I sort of suspect that I could get wrist motion together now that I have facility with another motion and know what to look for or how it is supposed to feel.

But anyway...

Yeah, I think you probably would. Learning new approaches to picking makes you better at learning picking techniques as well. It's a kinaesthetic thing.

[djg]

Joe played electric guitars and did not need to generate volume the way GJ players do on acoustic instruments.

joe at 14

[James W]

It might seem logical to you, but my experience has been that this follows at all. I've said this numerous times. I was able to play arpeggios and bebop lines before I mastered tremolo.

The hand works differently for tremolo.

I know you've said it numerous times. But, I have a question for you - did you ever have a problem with string hopping? If not, I think we can say with some confidence which one of us is exceptional.

I reckon my experience is more likely the norm. In which case, working on tremolo is the logical first step towards smooth efficient picking.

[djg]

Experimenting isn't enough. You kind of have to give yourself up to it and trust it for about a year while your chops fall apart and rebuild. Most people aren't up for that, and I get it.

i might be that crazy person. i am so sick of my right hand and the benson grip which does produce a good sound but never did speedwise what i hoped it'll do for me. so with the luxury of basically having reverted to amateur status i'm up for it. i used to pick and still play rhythm guitar that way (which goes to show that i was never really comfortable with the benson grip). and since everything one practices feeds everything else, i dont even expect the old tech to fall apart *gulp*. at least the bent wrist and the reststroke are familiar ground.

[m_d]

I'll ask a serious question, how much has Troy Grady's videos actually helped you play as well as you want to? Are you happy with your technique?

I've probably said that before, but the change was night and day; I'd probably have quit otherwise. I have zero patience for technical approximations, mediocre technique and the pedagogical tropes where so many teachers find their comfort zones. On the personal side, as I've also said before, my tennis game was transformed by a coach with a similar nuts-and-bolts approach years ago - I went from week-end warrior to a very high level, over the age of thirty, which some coaches say is impossible (Nick Bolletieri for instance, who at the time, I remember saying it's not possible to learn e.g. a different backhand grip, or a new serve technique after a certain age - totally absurd and false). Similar nuts-and-bolts approaches are extremely common in the world of sports, thus should - and do - work extremely well as applied to guitar technique.

About the rest stroke being common and easily accessible knowledge, I have serious doubts. I didn't find anything comprehensive or well done online at the time. Authentic gypsy jazz circles are notoriously difficult to approach. A trait I respect, but it doesn't make things easy. A French manouche player, someone who was born into that community, said he was never able to learn the canonical right hand techniques. So he developped an original style, closer to mainstream jazz and is a fine player - just with none of the usual manouche virtuosity. Goes to show that even for someone with close access, the style is not accessed easily. As I understand there's little patience for guys who don't catch on quick. So no, based on all evidence, the material was not easily available before Troy came around. Besides, not everyone wants to invest months or years learning manouche guitar, if all they want to do is learn good right-hand technique for another style.

[Christian Miller]

IDK - as I say I learned it off a video course from Djangobooks. Seemed fairly accessible to me.

[pamosmusic]

I think Troy’s work is a good thing, but the distinction Christian made between research and pedagogy is a useful one.

More information is a net good, but I do think there is a risk of focusing so much on mechanics that you forget about other good practice habits and don’t get to other very time consuming things that are really important for working up the right hand.

It’s a bit like someone diving head first into theory to be a better improviser. Theory is a good thing, but there’s a risk there of losing the forest for the trees.

Again — a good thing, but with limitations.

[charlieparker]

Two question on the rest stroke technique that came up for me after I tried it and watched the video.

Troy mentions pick slanting but, when I tried to do a tremolo with my pick slanted but parallel to the string, it got caught on the upstroke. What part of the pick is supposed to hit the string? It looked like for Troy the edge of the pick was attacking the string.

My second question is whether people use the rounded part of the pick to prevent getting stuck. Chang said he does.

[CliffR]

Two question on the rest stroke technique that came up for me after I tried it and watched the video.

Troy mentions pick slanting but, when I tried to do a tremolo with my pick slanted but parallel to the string, it got caught on the upstroke. What part of the pick is supposed to hit the string? It looked like for Troy the edge of the pick was attacking the string.

My second question is whether people use the rounded part of the pick to prevent getting stuck. Chang said he does.

It's common among rock players to play with the pick not parallel to the string, which helps it slice through - so yeah, I think that's what Troy is doing. So you'd rotate it so that the leading edge of the pick is aimed slightly down, and the back edge slightly up. If you're a Benson picker, this is reversed. I also find using only the very tip of the pick helps. To facilitate this, I rest the side of my thumb on the strings lower than the one I'm picking, and have only a small part of the pick protruding from out of my thumb and finger. But take all this with a big dose of salt - I'm hardly a picking expert.

[Christian Miller]

My second question is whether people use the rounded part of the pick to prevent getting stuck. Chang said he does.

It's common to do so among GJ players. I've never vibed with it myself.

[Christian Miller]

I did a quick video. Not sure if I'll release this one or not (I might redo it) but it covers the basic points I'm making, and it may better to see what I mean than read a load of description.

[starjasmine]

I'll ask a serious question, how much has Troy Grady's videos actually helped you play as well as you want to?

Maybe this Q is not directed at me, but I've found Troy's videos to be very helpful. I had good alt picking technique but the picking mechanics course did help me take it to another level.

Are you happy with your technique?

Yes and no.

• Yes, I'm happiER with it than before I took the course and did the work. I don't struggle with picking technique, as a rule. Do I feel like I can alt-pick ANYTHING, tho? Not yet. As James has noted, string-crossing with total fluidity and ease at high speeds is a special challenge; it is the one thing I'm still working to conquer. But I'm still seeing improvement and still trying new things. James' point about TG videos is a good one: he shows you a lot of approaches, without telling you which one to use.
• No, in the sense that there's still room for improvement, and I still want to improve.

To be clear, I'm not choosing sides in the Troy vs manouche pedagogy debate. I'm open to anything that helps me improve. I'm just saying that Troy's stuff is worthwhile.

[starjasmine]

I did a quick video. Not sure if I'll release this one or not (I might redo it) but it covers the basic points I'm making, and it may better to see what I mean than read a load of description.

Hey Christian,
Would you say that whole arm downstroke is (similar to, borrows from) the Dennis Sandole approach?
And if you are rotating your wrist to do the upstroke, you have to rotate it back into position for the next downstroke, no?
So is the whole-arm downstroke about string crossing, while tremolo on one string would come mostly from the wrist? If so, rotated or side-to-side motion? Or is tremolo whole arm, with the rotation for USX used just to cross strings?
Cheers
SJ

[charlieparker]

Hey Christian,
Would you say that whole arm downstroke is (similar to, borrows from) the Dennis Sandole approach?
And if you are rotating your wrist to do the upstroke, you have to rotate it back into position for the next downstroke, no?
So is the whole-arm downstroke about string crossing, while tremolo on one string would come mostly from the wrist? If so, rotated or side-to-side motion? Or is tremolo whole arm, with the rotation for USX used just to cross strings?
Cheers
SJ

I thought Sandole disciples uses a whole arm for both directions. Isn't Jack Zucker a former student?

[Christian Miller]

Hey Christian,
Would you say that whole arm downstroke is (similar to, borrows from) the Dennis Sandole approach?
And if you are rotating your wrist to do the upstroke, you have to rotate it back into position for the next downstroke, no?
So is the whole-arm downstroke about string crossing, while tremolo on one string would come mostly from the wrist? If so, rotated or side-to-side motion? Or is tremolo whole arm, with the rotation for USX used just to cross strings?
Cheers
SJ

I don’t think I know enough about Sandoles teaching to say. But I’m interested to find out more.

Yeah I think your second point is correct. This is why I wouldn’t recommend someone to get into this by tremolo picking on one string because the mechanics of playing arpeggios and so on really don’t lend themselves to that.

Which isn’t to say there isn’t tremolo picking in GJ - in fact I’d day there’s more of it than bop, including whole chord tremolos. You also get those single string two fingered chromatic runs you can famously see in that snippet of Django footage from the 30s.

But this movement is made with the pure rotation of the wrist in both directions so it’s a different feeling. I learned it a bit later.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Christian Miller]

Maybe this Q is not directed at me, but I've found Troy's videos to be very helpful. I had good alt picking technique but the picking mechanics course did help me take it to another level.

Yes and no.

• Yes, I'm happiER with it than before I took the course and did the work. I don't struggle with picking technique, as a rule. Do I feel like I can alt-pick ANYTHING, tho? Not yet. As James has noted, string-crossing with total fluidity and ease at high speeds is a special challenge; it is the one thing I'm still working to conquer. But I'm still seeing improvement and still trying new things. James' point about TG videos is a good one: he shows you a lot of approaches, without telling you which one to use.
• No, in the sense that there's still room for improvement, and I still want to improve.

To be clear, I'm not choosing sides in the Troy vs manouche pedagogy debate. I'm open to anything that helps me improve. I'm just saying that Troy's stuff is worthwhile.

It’s kind of a noted aspect of Joe pass/manouche etc USX picking that you can’t play everything. For example odd numbers of notes descending are always hard. These limitations are priced in, though there are ways of working around them.

Tbh as I have already said a load of times, the main reason I would see for anyone to go down the route of of USX picking is projection, and maybe for electric players, tone. It is true that by and large USX pickers tend to have a really good tone and you have a level of dynamic control is unachievable with, for instance, Chuck Wayne picking.

Alternate picking has many things to recommend it. I think it’s better for pocket. USX can be quite rushy if you aren’t careful. The picking direction and beat get decoupled so you have to be very aware of that stuff. Whereas with classical alt picking there’s a clear physical relationship with the beat. OTOH you can lock you into duple subdivisions, and jazz players who alternate tend to have the very eighth notey phrasing Barry used to tell us off for.

But alt picking is mechanically difficult and USX is MUCH easier to learn and teach IMO.

So you have to choose and drink your poison on this. No one has “solved picking” - people make different compromises. That said, I’m broadly happy with my technique.

One thing I’ve got from Tory recently is that USX alternate picking is possible with compound movements, and that’s something I’m semi working on at the moment. In this case you have a workable pathway from USX into a more flexible style of picking and that’s pretty cool. So thanks TG for that.

There is a gap between knowing what Olli Sokelli or whoever does on the micro level and being able to apply this my own practice. I think I’m getting somewhere through.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[m_d]

It's common among rock players to play with the pick not parallel to the string, which helps it slice through - so yeah, I think that's what Troy is doing. So you'd rotate it so that the leading edge of the pick is aimed slightly down, and the back edge slightly up. If you're a Benson picker, this is reversed. I also find using only the very tip of the pick helps. To facilitate this, I rest the side of my thumb on the strings lower than the one I'm picking, and have only a small part of the pick protruding from out of my thumb and finger. But take all this with a big dose of salt - I'm hardly a picking expert.

What charlieparker describes is the "garage spike" problem, covered by Troy many times over the years. It makes efficient picking impossible. Yes many rock players (famously Paul Gilbert) us side picking but smooth and efficient pick action can be achieved just as well with a flat or nearly flat pick orientation (frequent in the bluegrass world). All of this boils down very much to a geometry and mechanical problem. In relation to that: no need to use the rounded part of the pick - by a miracle of geometry, which at first, really blew my mind quite frankly. On that, check Troy's videos on YouTube with Andy Wood and Joscho Stephan demonstrating chord tremolo or fast strumming on acoustic. Two of the best right hands in the business, case settled. Some will be adamant about using the rounded part, Tom Bukovac once shouted me out in the comments section of one of his videos when I said it wasn't necessary.

[Christian Miller]

What charlieparker describes is the "garage spike" problem, covered by Troy many times over the years. It makes efficient picking impossible. Yes many rock players (famously Paul Gilbert) us side picking but smooth and efficient pick action can be achieved just as well with a flat or nearly flat pick orientation (frequent in the bluegrass world). All of this boils down very much to a geometry and mechanical problem. In relation to that: no need to use the rounded part of the pick - by a miracle of geometry, which at first, really blew my mind quite frankly. On that, check Troy's videos on YouTube with Andy Wood and Joscho Stephan demonstrating chord tremolo or fast strumming on acoustic. Two of the best right hands in the business, case settled. Some will be adamant about using the rounded part, Tom Bukovac once shouted me out in the comments section of one of his videos when I said it wasn't necessary.

Joscho's level of technique isn't an outlier in the GJ world BTW. Just saying.

[Christian Miller]

It's not that you're offending the church of Troy, it's that you're not assessing his material accurately.

I've watched most of his videos and corresponded with the man himself. I've been looking Troy's stuff for about 15 years.

I'm aware you're a teacher too and have your own way of explaining things and that's perfectly fine.

It's not MY way of explaining it. It's the way this technique is taught.

I also think he's missing some details.

Another thing, at the risk of sounding once again like a Troy zealot, which I don't mind at all - I find it very odd how many people seem to not appreciate what a truly badass player he is. He's also very humble about it. After all, this is a guy who received accolades from Dweezil Zappa - whom he joined on stage - and Steve Vai, not to mention all the world-class players he was able to convince to have their technique dissected under his camera. In that specific case, anyone else emulating that blazing Joe Pass chorus to perfection as he does would only get applause, and get asked "wow, good on you man, how did you do that"; "where can I find the transcription"?, etc.

I like Troy. I find his work interesting.

I don't think he's quite right about this specific thing.

I don't see that as a challenge to his honour or whatever. If one feels the need to defend someone when I disagree with them on a specific point, or bring in an appeal to authority, this would be cultish behaviour.

But he's a rock player - so it's not worthy of recognition.

Don't put words in my mouth. I enjoy all sorts of guitar players, including rock players. I think being an electric player gives you a certain perspective though and will encourage you to think about certain things. This technique derives from acoustic guitar.

And vice versa, converting from acoustic to electric is also a huge shift. You can pay a heavy strung guitar like an acoustic through a clean amp - which is what I think Joe is doing here - and that feels totally different to playing gauge 11 strings or lighter with drive. It's just a different thing. I do both.

He doesn't intellectualize and wax poetic about music theory - he doesn't need to, for the simple fact that technical mastery blows the doors wide open of what he can achieve on the guitar - basically play anything. Wynton Marsalis said "Technique is like a guardian";

What does that mean? He can play fast so therefore he doesn't need to understand other aspects of music? You could put him on a high level NYC standards gig and he'd be all over it because of his technical mastery? Seriously?

I would tend to say that this is not the case. I can't imagine Troy himself would make that claim.

Anyway, look, Troy's a nerd like I am. If his thing was baroque counterpoint, he'd totally go down that rabbit hole. Don't try to tell me he wouldn't lol.

I think is literally what Wynton meant. Learning from the best is sound philosophy. But when the best are able to explain what they do - jump on the opportunity.

The Best? In what sense?

At making YouTube videos about picking? Sure! He can demonstrate all those things with aplomb, too.

As he'd tell you - he's not a performing musician. That video he put out about having to perform live on a Dweezil gig was a case in point. I found it surreal that anyone would think about the mechanics of playing a short solo like that, so it was a very interesting watch from that perspective. So different to the way most musicians look at things.

He's someone who is specifically interested in the mechanics of guitar playing and makes YouTube videos about it. I would also expect he would say that he is on the path towards learning how to teach this. Just a hunch I get from his videos. He's looking for a way to go from the objective fact to actual teaching. He's trying to find a way of teaching high level pick technique to everyone. I think that's a great cause - we do need more input into technical pedagogy, especially in alternate picking.

OTOH I'm not his findings are always directly helpful to the student - they can cause people to develop new hang ups IMO. Technique is REALLY psychological. And as Troy himself would tell you there's a lot of stuff that is simply outside the realm of conscious control. So for me that takes it back to the wisdom of the way I learned this style of picking. Rest stroke picking is already taught. By people who can play at an incredibly high level. Thousands of people worldwide have mastered it.

And as I say - I think he has it a bit wrong - or at least he is missing some nuance.

[Alter]

The rest stroke is the most important thing in both gypsy and Benson picking. It's the anchor and the groove at the same time.

No matter how great a video is, it is difficult to get picking techniques exactly right, cause details are tricky to see, and without actual feedback you never know if you're doing things right. Also things have to start real slow and build up gradually, and most people don't have the patience for it.

Finally, a lot is just repetition and muscle memory, whatever style one uses. Just go for consistency and always minimal energy, the most economy possible. This is what leads to speed and effortless playing. You see Benson or Malmsteen or Rosenberg playing and it looks like they're not even trying..

[Christian Miller]

The rest stroke is the most important thing in both gypsy and Benson picking. It's the anchor and the groove at the same time.

No matter how great a video is, it is difficult to get picking techniques exactly right, cause details are tricky to see, and without actual feedback you never know if you're doing things right. Also things have to start real slow and build up gradually, and most people don't have the patience for it.

Finally, a lot is just repetition and muscle memory, whatever style one uses. Just go for consistency and always minimal energy, the most economy possible. This is what leads to speed and effortless playing. You see Benson or Malmsteen or Rosenberg playing and it looks like they're not even trying..

You know it's that patience and willingness to commit to something that might feel unfamiliar, while at the same time taking a leap of faith about the eventual results, which makes learning technique hard. Feedback from the teacher is undoubtedly very helpful.

If you think guitar is bad, try training as a classical singer sometime haha. At least you can see what your hands are doing.

[djg]

IDK - as I say I learned it off a video course from Djangobooks. Seemed fairly accessible to me.

i'll go the AI route and create a practice plan based on changs videos and additional sources. interesting times.