Joe Pass's Picking Technique

[m_d]

Some oud magic

The oud right hand

[MarkRhodes]

Yeah I was already aware of Pass's basic picking technique.

Still, it was interesting nonetheless and introduced a few things along the way that I wasn't so aware of, such as the 'failure to USX' thing.

Joe had a much more varied technique than the GJ guitarists that I've heard. Joe was more of a bebop player. (He phrased more like Oscar Peterson than like Django; much as Joe admired Django, he didn't sound like him or use all the same idiomatic phrases, or land heavily on the beat so often.)

Here is Joe playing a Django tune while sounding unlike Django and unlike GJ. (Much of this performance is fingerstyle---another main ingredient in Joe's versatile technique--but there is picking too.)

[olejason]

Franck is playing a Turkish oud (unique higher tuning, shorter scale length) in the Turkish style. Players from North Africa... mainly Palestine, Lebanon, Egypt, Morocco, etc. tend to be a little more "rest stroke-y" to my ears.

Simon Shaheen here for comparison:

Don't want to sidetrack the thread too much but for those of you who enjoy theory check out Turkish notation/theory if you've never gone down that rabbit hole. Pretty wild but fun to learn about.

[lawson-stone]

James Chirillo got me into that Van Eps ebook. Chirillo was ALL ABOUT tone during our lessons. Listening to him play up close and even on recordings, he has a pristine sound that cuts through.

I developed a floating hand right hand with that ebook. I liked the sound, but I had less control--especially at faster tempos. Thing is, I still want to keep the picking technique even as I play from a lightly anchored stance. I did the Troy Mechanics thing and he seemed to contradict the rest-stroke technique I was learning. Troy said I should use my wrist, and no forearm--anchor from the palm instead. I wanted a stronger rest stroke to match the sound I had in my head.

Troy's done a lot of great work labeling the mechanics of guitar picking. That said, he's not everything when it comes to guitar picking technique. Be great to have another jazz guitarist talk about picking, besides Benson and his students. My vote goes to Joe Cohn, that cat is a monster--and he plays multiple instruments to boot!

I've always been impressed at Joe Pass' "floating right hand." No pinky propping, no resting the hand on the guitar anywhere. I think that might go back to his initial instruction on the guitar which I think was with the Carcassi Classical Guitar method book. I wish I hadn't acquired the habit of propping my hand on my pinky but at this point I doubt it's worth the effort to un-learn it.

Joes right and left hand technique are just immaculate. The left hand never seems out of place, never has to stretch, almost never hooks the thumb over, balanced use of all fingers. I often find myself just literally watching how he plays, quite apart from the brilliance of what he plays.

[Christian Miller]

Teaching concepts of picking technique, that is. Of course he didn't invent the rest stroke.

Oh Troy is compelling on the theory. However, I’m not too sure how helpful this theory is to someone actually learning to do this - and I think Tory gets this. I mean he says as much in the video.

I have found his description of the mechanics involved useful but only after I’d already learned to pick pretty well this way. I’m not sure teaching what the body actually does is sound pedagogy - and he himself acknowledge this - although it is VERY interesting. Plus I think Troy was trying to reinvent the wheel a bit on this one.

Teaching people how to rest stroke pick is kind of a solved problem. (I don’t think that’s true for all the stuff Troy teaches btw.) You can certainly find a teacher - it’s just less well known in electric guitar circles. I know loads of players who have learned to do this. There are teachers and courses.

The main issue as I see it is learning how the stroke is made. For me this took a while. It feels very ‘uncontrolled’ because most people make compound motions to avoid the next string and create a free stoke. That’s because most people are told to alternate pick by many teachers but not told exactly how, so they learn to manage accuracy this way. This leads to the dreaded string hopping etc.

If you simplify that motion which takes relearning (always harder than learning, but possible, I did it) the other stuff is downstream of that. The upstroke comes as a different movement is at also needs to be mastered. The key seems to be in the quality of the strokes.

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[PickingMyEars]

I had a lesson with Denis Chang to understand the mechanics of rest stroke.

He told me that I should see the palm of my picking hand to get the correct starting position. He also noticed that I was over rotating. Even though we only had one lesson, I could tell he's a good teacher.

Previously, I learned the forearm rotation studying with Bruce Arnold--he explained it as holding a pencil and making squiggles on a page with the picking hand as you pull the page away. Then I studied Jimmy Bruno's technique--that picking technique book was actually quite useful. Then I got interested in "manouche technique."

Years and years later, I started experimenting with a light anchor with my picking hand.

I think technique is physical and aural. As in, I need to hear the ideas I want to play--and then commit them to muscle memory. Transcription books never worked for me for those faster lines. I needed to hear all the details first--get the accents and articulations--the details difficult to write down. Still a work in progress--but I am trying to get technique from the music, instead of from spider exercises and such.

[James W]

Oh Troy is compelling on the theory. However, I’m not too sure how helpful this theory is to someone actually learning to do this. (Bear in mind this is actually how I play the guitar.)

Tbf I have found his description of the mechanics involved useful but only after I’d already learned to pick pretty well this way. I’m not sure teaching what the body actually does is sound pedagogy - and he himself acknowledge this - although it is VERY interesting. Plus I think Troy is trying to reinvent the wheel a bit on this one though.

Teaching people how to rest stroke pick is kind of a solved problem. (I don’t think that’s true for all the stuff Troy teaches btw.) You can certainly find a teacher - it’s just less well known in electric guitar circles. I know loads of players who have learned to do this. There are teachers and courses.

The main issue as I see it is learning how the stroke is made. For me this took a while. It feels very ‘uncontrolled’ because most people make compound motions to avoid the next string and create a free stoke. That’s because most people are told to alternate pick by many teachers but not told exactly how, so they learn to manage accuracy this way. This leads to the dreaded string hopping etc.

If you simplify that motion which takes relearning (always harder than learning, but possible, I did it). The key seems to be in the quality of the downstroke.

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String hopping is not a result of not using a rest stroke. You can use the rest stroke and still string hop.

The crucial aspect of Grady's teaching is that if you do string hop, the best way to get away from it is experimenting at speeds above those capable of string hopping. The criteria he gives are that it should feel easy and smooth. You discover how to pick efficiently through feel primarily. The rest stroke comes in when you want to slant the pick a particular way to create a particular escape.

This chimes with how I learnt - it was simple and quick discovering that I can do thumb-finger motion fast and smoothly. Most people have more success with a wrist based motion for which Grady gives fairly extensive instructions, though I never had much success with them.

I understand that you learnt and teach in quite a different way.

[Christian Miller]

I had a lesson with Denis Chang to understand the mechanics of rest stroke.

He told me that I should see the palm of my picking hand to get the correct starting position. He also noticed that I was over rotating. Even though we only had one lesson, I could tell he's a good teacher.

Previously, I learned the forearm rotation studying with Bruce Arnold--he explained it as holding a pencil and making squiggles on a page with the picking hand as you pull the page away. Then I studied Jimmy Bruno's technique--that picking technique book was actually quite useful. Then I got interested in "manouche technique."

Years and years later, I started experimenting with a light anchor with my picking hand.

I think technique is physical and aural. As in, I need to hear the ideas I want to play--and then commit them to muscle memory. Transcription books never worked for me for those faster lines. I needed to hear all the details first--get the accents and articulations--the details difficult to write down. Still a work in progress--but I am trying to get technique from the music, instead of from spider exercises and such.

Yeah I mean you have to choose one thing and stick at it. It takes concerted work for quite a stretch of time.

Tbh I think the main issue facing anyone with mastering a profoundly different technique as someone who already plays is that you kind of have to commit to your technique being a basket case for a few months and focus on being a bit of a beginner again until you build the muscle memory.

Most people seem not to be up for this. Which is fair enough.


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[charlieparker]

Yeah I mean you have to choose one thing and stick at it. It takes concerted work for quite a stretch of time.

Tbh I think the main issue facing anyone with mastering a profoundly different technique as someone who already plays is that you kind of have to commit to your technique being a basket case for a few months and focus on being a bit of a beginner again until you build the muscle memory.

Most people seem not to be up for this. Which is fair enough.


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Sheryl Bailey talks about this and said it took her a year to switch to Benson picking under Rodney Jones' tutelage with her technique being wrecked during the transition.

[PickingMyEars]

The string hopping was definitely a new aspect of my picking to self-critique. Hadn't heard of that until I studied Troy's material.

That being said, there is so much that I was able to learn from face-to-face lessons. Later on, virtual lessons helped as well--especially when I moved out of NYC. Being able to observe technique up close and have someone else do the same to mine was more helpful than trying to learn it from books and the internet. That feedback is crucial.

There's a ton of nuance that goes into articulating a phrase--helped me to hear it up close. Additionally, we are still playing music that is primarily meant for the horn--doesn't lay as well on the guitar. That alone affects our picking technique, compared to "guitar based music" like bluegrass (I love bluegrass!)

[Mick-7]

Sheryl Bailey talks about this and said it took her a year to switch to Benson picking under Rodney Jones' tutelage with her technique being wrecked during the transition.

Coincidentally, I'd saved the link to her video on the topic:

[m_d]

Franck is playing a Turkish oud (unique higher tuning, shorter scale length) in the Turkish style. Players from North Africa... mainly Palestine, Lebanon, Egypt, Morocco, etc. tend to be a little more "rest stroke-y" to my ears.

Simon Shaheen here for comparison:

Don't want to sidetrack the thread too much but for those of you who enjoy theory check out Turkish notation/theory if you've never gone down that rabbit hole. Pretty wild but fun to learn about.

Do you know Franck by any chance? He is an amazing musician. An Artist through and through. In another life he also was a jazz guitarist. One of the best I've ever heard, be it in real life, on recordings, across all eras, anywhere. He moved on to other pursuits for reasons I'm not privy to.

[m_d]

Oh Troy is compelling on the theory. However, I’m not too sure how helpful this theory is to someone actually learning to do this - and I think Tory gets this. I mean he says as much in the video.

I have found his description of the mechanics involved useful but only after I’d already learned to pick pretty well this way. I’m not sure teaching what the body actually does is sound pedagogy - and he himself acknowledge this - although it is VERY interesting. Plus I think Troy was trying to reinvent the wheel a bit on this one.

Teaching people how to rest stroke pick is kind of a solved problem. (I don’t think that’s true for all the stuff Troy teaches btw.) You can certainly find a teacher - it’s just less well known in electric guitar circles. I know loads of players who have learned to do this. There are teachers and courses.

The main issue as I see it is learning how the stroke is made. For me this took a while. It feels very ‘uncontrolled’ because most people make compound motions to avoid the next string and create a free stoke. That’s because most people are told to alternate pick by many teachers but not told exactly how, so they learn to manage accuracy this way. This leads to the dreaded string hopping etc.

If you simplify that motion which takes relearning (always harder than learning, but possible, I did it) the other stuff is downstream of that. The upstroke comes as a different movement is at also needs to be mastered. The key seems to be in the quality of the strokes.

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Picking was not a solved problem. It a major technical hurdle in my case and hundreds others' - if picking technique teaching was so good before Troy (it wasn't, it was often terrible and downright misleading) Troy wouldn't have undertaken that monumental work, which in my opinion, is ground-breaking and will endure. I had searched high and low, the best that was available at the time was Tuck Andress's unfinished series. Nor could I find a suitable teacher in my area. Aside from the single notes stuff the material on strumming in the Andy Wood, Joscho Stefan and Olli Soikelli videos, though not systematized, is exceptional and gave me technical solutions I'd been hunting for years. Troy doesn't say his stuff is unhelpful, what would be the point of his efforts? He and his team have helped countless people. Private lessons are available, or people can post videos of their picking and get feedback for free.

[Rob MacKillop]

I don’t enjoy hearing technique in musical performances…which may go some way to explaining my love of Jim Hall’s playing.

[James W]

I don’t enjoy hearing technique in musical performances…which may go some way to explaining my love of Jim Hall’s playing.

Interesting. Could you explain a bit more? I think I probably have a broader conception of what constitutes technique than you perhaps do.

[Rob MacKillop]

Okay, I may have used the term in a restricted sense. Clearly Jim Hall had plenty of technique, but it always seemed at the service of his poetic muse, never technique for technique’s sake. I was never aware that he had been practising with a metronome, for example, or that he was using any particular right-hand technique.

[MarkRhodes]

Teaching people how to rest stroke pick is kind of a solved problem. (I don’t think that’s true for all the stuff Troy teaches btw.) You can certainly find a teacher - it’s just less well known in electric guitar circles. I know loads of players who have learned to do this. There are teachers and courses.

Joe played electric guitars and did not need to generate volume the way GJ players do on acoustic instruments. (Curiously, bluegrass players---who also play acoustic guitars, and play them fast, do not use the GJ style of rest stroke picking.) Dani Rabin---a fusion player by trade, a Berklee grad, who started playing GJ in later life--gives a great demonstration of GJ right hand technique.

If you can watch this clip and the Joe Pass clip in Troy's video and honestly say, "Yeah, same thing as far as I can see," then you need new glasses.

A clip of Dani with his band Marbin. That Strat seems to be his main instrument for fusion. Here he is playing with a flat wrist (for the most part). It's a different deal. One can do both, but they are not the same.

[James W]

Okay, I may have used the term in a restricted sense. Clearly Jim Hall had plenty of technique, but it always seemed at the service of his poetic muse, never technique for technique’s sake. I was never aware that he had been practising with a metronome, for example, or that he was using any particular right-hand technique.

Sorry I guess I was being a bit disingenuous regarding Hall not being a technical player.

I am fond of metronome practice and right hand technique, personally. I wonder, Rob, whether this aversion to these things extends beyond the guitar to other instruments?

I suppose guitarists in jazz have often used horn players or to a lesser extent pianists as models for facility. I admit I admire the dazzling technique of someone like John Coltrane and I find no contradiction between acknowledging his transcendental technique and the utterly surpassing, empyreal poetic quiddity it embodies. They are one and the same... Guitarists of course have to resort to other means since we can't hope to truly mimic Trane. Of course there are guitarists whose display of technique is empty, but I certainly wouldn't count Joe Pass among them.

[James W]

Joe played electric guitars and did not need to generate volume the way GJ players do on acoustic instruments. (Curiously, bluegrass players---who also play acoustic guitars, and play them fast, do not use the GJ style of rest stroke picking.) Dani Rabin---a fusion player by trade, a Berklee grad, who started playing GJ in later life--gives a great demonstration of GJ right hand technique.

If you can watch this clip and the Joe Pass clip in Troy's video and honestly say, "Yeah, same thing as far as I can see," then you need new glasses.

A clip of Dani with his band Marbin. That Strat seems to be his main instrument for fusion. Here he is playing with a flat wrist (for the most part). It's a different deal. One can do both, but they are not the same.

They may stylistically differ but it is the same technique - USX alternate with down sweeps. Basically everything fits with the downward pickslanting.

Loads of guitarists across different genres do this. And that's not to say there's not variation in form among them, but they all do the crucial stuff in common.

[pamosmusic]

… his transcendental technique and the utterly surpassing, empyreal poetic quiddity it embodies.

dang brother

[Christian Miller]

Joe played electric guitars and did not need to generate volume the way GJ players do on acoustic instruments. (Curiously, bluegrass players---who also play acoustic guitars, and play them fast, do not use the GJ style of rest stroke picking.)

Tony Rice was a rest stroke picker, for example. There's divergent approaches in Bluegrass.

Dani Rabin---a fusion player by trade, a Berklee grad, who started playing GJ in later life--gives a great demonstration of GJ right hand technique.

He's a decent GJ player. His technique here is correct for that form.

If you can watch this clip and the Joe Pass clip in Troy's video and honestly say, "Yeah, same thing as far as I can see," then you need new glasses.

Could you reread what I said above, because I believe it covers this.

No, what Joe does is not strictly speaking GJ picking because his wrist is at a shallower angle. But the mechanics are similar.

Listen to the sound Joe is producing even on electric guitar, it's really strong. I'm thinking he most likely started on acoustic guitar. These things are downstream from playing this way. And except really in the GJ sphere this style of picking stopped being taught, probably because projection was no longer an issue.

I don't play strict GJ either - but learning it was important.

A clip of Dani with his band Marbin. That Strat seems to be his main instrument for fusion. Here he is playing with a flat wrist (for the most part). It's a different deal. One can do both, but they are not the same.

I'm not being funny, Mark, but this is literally the way I play the flipping guitar. And I do that part of it well. I too adjust the way I play depending on instrument.

If Troy was talking about the specifics of alternate picking I wouldn't feel the need to weigh in. I often find what Troy says interesting - and even helpful on occasion - but I don't think how he's approaching it here is the best way to learn this technique IMO. But I see that I've offended the church of Troy.

[Mick-7]

I'm not being funny, Mark, but this literally the way I play the flipping guitar. And I do that part of it well..

What is "this," Christian, like the gypsy or the marbin guitarist? - expect it's the latter.

[Christian Miller]

What is "this," Christian, like the gypsy or the marbin guitarist? - expect it's the latter.

It's the same guy?

I play gypsy jazz, and I also play electric. I do paid gigs in both?

You do have to make some changes, but I stand by what I've said. It's about the downstroke.

I think what GJ gives you is the absolutely exaggerated version of that technique - which is helpful.

[Mick-7]

It's the same guy?

I play gypsy jazz, and I also play electric. I do paid gigs in both?

You do have to make some changes, but I stand by what I've said. It's about the downstroke.

I think what GJ gives you is the absolutely exaggerated version of that technique - which is helpful.

Oh, o.k., amazing how hair can change your appearance! And his wrist is not bent in the fusion video as it is in the acoustic guitar video.

Does the position of your wrist (or something else) change when you're playing an acoustic versus an electric guitar?

[Christian Miller]

Picking was not a solved problem. It a major technical hurdle in my case and hundreds others' - if picking technique teaching was so good before Troy (it wasn't, it was often terrible and downright misleading) Troy wouldn't have undertaken that monumental work, which in my opinion, is ground-breaking and will endure. I had searched high and low, the best that was available at the time was Tuck Andress's unfinished series. Nor could I find a suitable teacher in my area. Aside from the single notes stuff the material on strumming in the Andy Wood, Joscho Stefan and Olli Soikelli videos, though not systematized, is exceptional and gave me technical solutions I'd been hunting for years. Troy doesn't say his stuff is unhelpful, what would be the point of his efforts? He and his team have helped countless people. Private lessons are available, or people can post videos of their picking and get feedback for free.

No, please read what I wrote. Teaching rest stroke picking was a solved problem. There was a tradition of how to teach it.

It's not that everyone had access to it .. but rather that there is school of rest stroke picking that goes back quite a ways. What I think what Troy has done is worked out some interesting properties of how the technique works, but these properties are not actually necessary for the student to know. Pay attention to how this technique is traditionally taught. It works. Troy will tell you how and why, but that may not be as important for the student, interesting though it is.

TBF to Troy, it seems like he is working this out. I think he's onto something and he is a very good communicator. There's a need to sit on all this info and work out how best to teach the student. Which is what a good teacher should do - it's why I watch his stuff, I want to be a better teacher. But research is not pedagogy. That's where it gets tricky.

People been teaching this style of picking for a very long time. The pedagogy seems sound to me, and the evidence is in the results.

I'll ask a serious question, how much has Troy Grady's videos actually helped you play as well as you want to? Are you happy with your technique?

If the answer is no, there may be other avenues that will get results. It's a sign of our times that we tend to go to people on the internet in this way.