Getting started with modal Jazz

**Jazzjourney4Eva** · 05-16-2023, 11:35 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

No, it's absolutely not just a fast 'So What'. First off, Coltrane didn't really write Impressions, it was copied from part of Pavanne, a light classical piece by Morton Gould from 1942. That same tune was recorded by any number of musicians at the time. I'll let you check that out.

Second, whereas Coltrane's solos in 'So What' are, as I said, no more than diatonic noodling and bugle call imitations, he let loose on Impressions with all kinds of chromaticism, what I call the crazy stuff. As did Brecker and Dolphy on their versions.

I've no doubt at all that Coltrane felt confined by Miles' versions and reacted by doing his own. But I guess we all have to make up our minds about that.

Please. The form is the same, the key/mode is the same, the chord progression is the same, and it came after So What, which Trane was a huge part of. Given So What's unique tune characteristics in jazz music, that was hardly coincidental.

Miles started playing So What faster right around the time Trane left the band and Impressions came out around the same time. I don't know who influenced whom on tempo.

If you play Impressions on your jazz album or live you will owe Coltrane's estate, not Gould's - because????? Coltrane was the composer.

**Jazzjourney4Eva** · 05-16-2023, 11:47 PM

The first twenty seconds of Trane's solo on So What have plenty of the antecedent/consequent phrasing mentioned above. The very first thing he does is a short question & answer.

Regarding noodling over a Mi7 chord with one idea having little connection to what preceded or succeeded it, one can hear a good deal of that in this very thread - no offense. Maybe listen to what Trane did in 1959 and give it another go? Something as simple as repitition would be a step in the right direction. It can be melodic, rhythmic, or both.

**kris** · 05-17-2023, 01:44 AM

Is it easy to play over two chords?
There seem to be only two chords.
The problem is to play in such a way that it is interesting and that requires a lot of knowledge...

**Jazzjourney4Eva** · 05-17-2023, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by kris

Is it easy to play over two chords?
There seem to be only two chords.
The problem is to play in such a way that it is interesting and that requires a lot of knowledge...

Right. How do you engage - and keep - the listener's attention when everything but the soloist's melody is static? You have to tell a little story, you have to weave some kind of narrative, or narratives.

Failing that, the overwhelming majority of listeners will check out, and fast.

**ragman1** · 05-17-2023, 08:51 AM

supersoul -

Thanks, I've had a look. I expect most players would have a jazz guitar and wouldn't mind a backing track. Possibly the one below might do. A few of the other tracks are very slow and it's very easy to completely lose track when that happens. Also the modes are written out, etc.

So, yes, it might be a better starter than So What, although they could maybe practice with that first to get the idea :-)

**mr. beaumont** · 05-17-2023, 10:18 AM

Re: So What

Never enjoyed it "fast" as much as the original. So What is best as a lope. Impressions is a sprint

Sketches is a great one. Think I might want to do a take on this one.

**Jazzjourney4Eva** · 05-17-2023, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Re: So What

Never enjoyed it "fast" as much as the original. So What is best as a lope. Impressions is a sprint

Sketches is a great one. Think I might want to do a take on this one.

well after the head it’s just the same, lol.

**mr. beaumont** · 05-17-2023, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by Jazzjourney4Eva

well after the head it’s just the same, lol.

Is it though?

**Jazzjourney4Eva** · 05-17-2023, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Is it though?

How is it not? 32 bar AABA form, A sections are Dmi7, B section is Ebmi7.

**mr. beaumont** · 05-17-2023, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Jazzjourney4Eva

How is it not? 32 bar AABA form, A sections are Dmi7, B section is Ebmi7.

But the melody is not the same. Each dictates a feel, both physically and rhythmically, that carries over into the feel of the improv. And think about the characteristic piano riffs...one descends, one ascends. Totally changes the feel. So What has a resolving feel...Impressions pushes ahead.

Playing the head to So What faster makes it sound more frenetic, which I think carries over into some of those performances. Impressions works at a wider range of tempo, to my ear.

So yeah, they're the same chords, but everything that informs how the tune feels to improvise on is set up by the feel of the head. That's important.

I mean, are Donna Lee and Back Home Again in Indiana the same tune?

**Jazzjourney4Eva** · 05-17-2023, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

But the melody is not the same. Each dictates a feel, both physically and rhythmically, that carries over into the feel of the improv. And think about the characteristic piano riffs...one descends, one ascends. Totally changes the feel. So What has a resolving feel...Impressions pushes ahead.

Well I said the melody/head was different. And sure if it’s faster, the feel and rhythm section approach would unsurprisingly vary.

I take this thread to be more about approaching improvisation on a modal tune, as opposed to accompaniment. Most players need to go through extensive laborious effort to build improv capability. Rhythm is certainly a huge part of it, but the overwhelming attention is focused on melodic and harmonic expression.

**mr. beaumont** · 05-17-2023, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by Jazzjourney4Eva

Well I said the melody/head was different. And sure if it’s faster, the feel and rhythm section approach would unsurprisingly vary.

I take this thread to be more about approaching improvisation on a modal tune, as opposed to accompaniment. Most players need to go through extensive laborious effort to build improv capability. Rhythm is certainly a huge part of it, but the overwhelming attention is focused on melodic and harmonic expressions.

See, that's what I'm getting at--rhythm should influence melodic choices too...the way someone is comping and someone else is soloing should be an interaction. It's not guitar-eoke.

**ragman1** · 05-17-2023, 02:05 PM

Now, look. Go outside of an early morning. See how the light begins on one side, slowly moving upwards. There's the sun, up and tracing its way across the sky as the day goes on. You're there, perfectly static, but the light is moving inexorably on its path. And then, later, it begins to descend, gently sinking below the horizon on the opposite side from where it arose all those hours ago.

Quite plainly the sun goes around the earth. How could it possibly be otherwise?

**kris** · 05-17-2023, 02:16 PM

...so what?

**Jazzjourney4Eva** · 05-17-2023, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Now, look. Go outside of an early morning. See how the light begins on one side, slowly moving upwards. There's the sun, up and tracing its way across the sky as the day goes on. You're there, perfectly static, but the light is moving inexorably on its path. And then, later, it begins to descend, gently sinking below the horizon on the opposite side from where it arose all those hours ago.

Quite plainly the sun goes around the earth. How could it possibly be otherwise?

lol, have you started working on your antecedent consequent improv yet?

**ragman1** · 05-17-2023, 05:25 PM

I may never have said so at the time, Kris, but anyone who can sit through that without grinning has lost the joy of living :-)

**Christian Miller** · 05-18-2023, 02:19 AM

Originally Posted by kris

Is it easy to play over two chords?
There seem to be only two chords.
The problem is to play in such a way that it is interesting and that requires a lot of knowledge...

if only there was some way we could learn from the masters directly by investigating their music in depth by listening to it and learning it on our instruments.

**kris** · 05-18-2023, 04:10 AM

Originally Posted by Christian Miller

if only there was some way we could learn from the masters directly by investigating their music in depth by listening to it and learning it on our instruments.

This is jazz - constantly practicing, listening, analyzing and being creative.

**ragman1** · 05-18-2023, 05:24 AM

Originally Posted by Christian Miller

if only there was some way we could learn from the masters directly by investigating their music in depth by listening to it and learning it on our instruments.

Well, you may not go for this particularly but I'm not altogether sure about that. Sitting at the feet of the masters leads to imitation. The problem there is that we'll never be them.

Whatever they do is from their brain, their mentality, their background of life and experience. So it's not us. We might copy their technical ideas but those ideas, if they work, can be found anywhere. They can't be playing something not already known and understood from studying music.

Imitation leads to loss of confidence. We convince ourselves that we're not so good but they are great, so we'll never be like them, and so on. It destroys initiative. Creative powers do not flourish that way.

The strange thing is that when someone comes up with something really original we worship them and want to copy it. But we never see that, to produce that originality, those people were not copying anybody else, and that's the point. They may be using the same technical ideas but they weren't following anybody else.

Creative originality comes out of nowhere. It never comes to a mind that is trying to be something other than it is.

**Christian Miller** · 05-18-2023, 06:18 AM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Well, you may not go for this particularly but I'm not altogether sure about that. Sitting at the feet of the masters leads to imitation. The problem there is that we'll never be them.

Whatever they do is from their brain, their mentality, their background of life and experience. So it's not us. We might copy their technical ideas but those ideas, if they work, can be found anywhere. They can't be playing something not already known and understood from studying music.

Imitation leads to loss of confidence. We convince ourselves that we're not so good but they are great, so we'll never be like them, and so on. It destroys initiative. Creative powers do not flourish that way.

The strange thing is that when someone comes up with something really original we worship them and want to copy it. But we never see that, to produce that originality, those people were not copying anybody else, and that's the point. They may be using the same technical ideas but they weren't following anybody else.

Creative originality comes out of nowhere. It never comes to a mind that is trying to be something other than it is.

So I dunno, did all the greats develop their abilities by listening to intermediate level musicians discuss their process? Or from their playing?

I would expect it would be better to learn from someone amazing.

I mean, it’s hard to know where to start with this to be honest.

Even a casual knowledge of music history will reveal study of other musicians does not necessarily lead to imitation and creativity does not spring from ignorance. It’s obviously daft.

(Songwriters! Don’t learn any songs, it‘ll mess with your muse!!!)

Every great musician I know listens a lot and in detail to other peoples music - while they may vary wildly in other ways, it’s one of things they have in common so I guess it’s important. And if you don’t end up great - you’ll still have enriched your life and understanding of music.

Unfounded confidence otoh is a really good way to aggravate other musicians- see that most feared of creatures, the Jam Session Troll. It is also entirely possible to overvalue one’s own creativity. Maybe it’s a me generation thing.

Anyway, thanks for being my convenient strawman!