Getting started with modal Jazz

[mr. beaumont]

Modal Jazz LIVES!!

[ragman1]

If one really wants to use modal sound... just become aware of and how to use the characteristic pitch of Modes.

Good god, we agree :-)

[Christian Miller]

Yea... modal jazz has been dead for decades, you can occasionally play a modal style tune... but generally audiences will suddenly develop headaches ...or need quick refreshments.

What has become more useful is to use Modal sound as an effect. Almost like an embellishment... or what most seem to use the sound as... Subdominant harmonic, (or melodic), Functional type of musical movement.

Part of the difficulty of playing in a modal style is.... most still hear standard functional melodic or harmonic concepts.

Generally just because something isn't played doesn't really mean it's not heard or implied.

If one really wants to use modal sound... just become aware of and how to use the characteristic pitch of Modes.

I'm taking it for granted... we are talking about Jazz.

If you mean like Live at the Vanguard by Trane… It seems to me that modal jazz evolved into fusion and then everyone got sick of vamps about 1976

What seems to have happened is that modal concepts are now applied to non modal tunes. Tbh there’s so much non functional harmony out there these days … I don’t know if that’s modal or not. People often call those post bop type tunes modal, but I don’t think they are like India or Miles’s Mode or something.

I have a soft spot for Miles original conception. I hear it most these days in ECM world jazz type releases, which is often true modal music (no chords.)

[ragman1]

Yes, Lovano's nice.

We could amend the thread title:

GETTING STARTED WITH NO CHORDS

[AllanAllen]

Don’t play a dominant seventh until bar 4 obviously

You can play a dominant seventh if there's a quick IV in bar 2.

[Christian Miller]

You can play a dominant seventh if there's a quick IV in bar 2.

Well done, you win tonight’s special prize which is not to have a visit from the bebop police

to everyone else on the thread - stay out of trouble

[Reg]

Yea I still think most of the above reference to modal as typical Subdominant functional harmony... or Modal Interchange but still using Maj/Min functional organization.

I guess if the ex. Mr. B posted of Kamasi's Truth is Modal... what makes it Modal.. I hear and the V I reference bass played before he started vamp.... pretty much said it all. Although I love II-7 to Ima and all the cool vamps.

Christian pretty much said it.... it died in the 70's.... I was actually playing gigs back then the modal tunes were cool...the direction of Freddie or Charles playing Little Sunflower, Joe Henderson and all the 60's player/composers.

Different types of Melodic cadences can work. Modal style music was a great door that allowed a lot of expanding what was the standard BS.... was great for technically skilled players. But as with most BS gets old and we need to move on.
But it also adds another style of tune to play during a set. Yea... Modal Concepts are typically used now. I dig using Blue note modal concepts...LOL

[Maaj12]

So could we say that modal jazz is:

A "scene" in jazz history
but at the same time
all music and playing is modal

and that it is
both harder and easier than other types of jazz.
and it is not that complicated , but often misunderstood.
Right got it

[Maaj12]

And that modal jazz is dead
but very much alive

Modal Jazz LIVES!!
Yes Mr B this is the type of Jazz I have been listing to which I thought was modal and is very much a big scene over here at the UK festivals

[Tal_175]

And that modal jazz is dead
but very much alive

Modal Jazz LIVES!!
Yes Mr B this is the type of Jazz I have been listing to which I thought was modal and is very much a big scene over here at the UK festivals

It's seems like Nat Birchall has followed the conventional path. I suspect that's gonna be the case more often than not for the more accomplished jazz artists in any sub-genre:

"Nat Birchall found his way into the music of Charlie Parker, John Coltrane and the whole world of Jazz, before finding his own voice on his instrument."
https://www.last.fm/music/Nat+Birchall/+wiki

[Reg]

Thanks for that Tal175... is this the music?

[ragman1]

Maaj12 -

I'm glad you're still with us. Listening is good but are you playing anything? If you are then 'So What' is as good a starting point as any. It can be just C maj and Db maj (D and Eb Dorian) but there are lots of little tricks to make it more interesting. Details on request :-)

In the meantime here's an interesting little number, 'Time Remembered' by Bill Evans. It's very seriously modal and there's certainly more than one or two chords in it. There's no key centre and no dom7 chords, just minors and majors.

It would be simple enough to just play the chords as written (Bm7 - CM7 - FM7 - Em7) but actually all the minors are m9's and all the majors are M7#11's. So the solos have to be modal.

Here's a lead sheet (just to look at) and an effort of mine I just did. It doesn't swing much and it's not particularly atonal. But the point is to make the modal notes fit the chords. It can, as I said, be played 'straight', and it works well enough, but there's something missing if one does that, it's rather dull. It's the modal harmonies that lift it, and that's the point of it.

You don't have to listen to it but it's an interesting exercise.

[Tal_175]

Thanks for that Tal175... is this the music?

Yes, Reg. Nat Birchall was one of the modal hard-bop musicians inspired the OP to create this thread according to his first post.
After hearing him, I'm not surprised that Bird and Trane are among his early influencers.

[kris]

Yea...minor blues.....;

[ragman1]

It's very flash but what's it got to do with modal playing, Kris?

[kris]

This is a modal playing....not for beginners...!!!

[Bobby Timmons]

Crap I've learned about recently. Modal playing can be applied over tonal tunes. Basically the chords are just shapes, usually 4ths, moved around in the scale without regard for what is the root. Then for melody, McCoy slides around a lot of pentatonic ideas. It gives a vague sound with regard to the chord progression. Pretty cool effect over a tonal tune, sounds sophisticated. I've heard Jimmy Smith do this too.

[Lionelsax]

Something I applied on Four, years ago before I decided to play the guitar again.

[Christian Miller]

Crap I've learned about recently. Modal playing can be applied over tonal tunes. Basically the chords are just shapes, usually 4ths, moved around in the scale without regard for what is the root. Then for melody, McCoy slides around a lot of pentatonic ideas. It gives a vague sound with regard to the chord progression. Pretty cool effect over a tonal tune, sounds sophisticated. I've heard Jimmy Smith do this too.

perfect for guitarists haha

i think the quartal side slip thing was one of the first jazz things I learned on guitar - yes I was listening to a lot of McCoy/Trane early on

it seems like they are two ways you can look at it - relating the quartal voicings to this or that scale - or you can see it as free chromatic motion.

Incidentally with McCoy I tend to hear it more as a pentatonic thing than a modal thing. It’s like taking notes from the pentatonic scale an organising into chords. Same with lines that jump around in fourths within the pentatonic. Wayne did this a lot of course.

You can obviously sub pentatonics in for various chords and scales. The Db major/Bbm pent on G7 is an obvious example.

Btw does anyone feel it’s easy to stereotype McCoy’s playing as the ‘BOM bam bam’ guy? He was such an elegant and versatile player and his old school ballads playing is just gorgeous.

[kris]

perfect for guitarists haha

i think the quartal side slip thing was one of the first jazz things I learned on guitar - yes I was listening to a lot of McCoy/Trane early on

it seems like they are two ways you can look at it - relating the quartal voicings to this or that scale - or you can see it as free chromatic motion.

Incidentally with McCoy I tend to hear it more as a pentatonic thing than a modal thing. It’s like taking notes from the pentatonic scale an organising into chords. Same with lines that jump around in fourths within the pentatonic. Wayne did this a lot of course.

You can obviously sub pentatonics in for various chords and scales. The Db major/Bbm pent on G7 is an obvious example.

Btw does anyone feel it’s easy to stereotype McCoy’s playing as the ‘BOM bam bam’ guy? He was such an elegant and versatile player and his old school ballads playing is just gorgeous.

I love McCoy Tyner.

[kris]

[Bobby Timmons]

perfect for guitarists haha

Yes, perfect for guitarists ha.

it seems like they are two ways you can look at it - relating the quartal voicings to this or that scale - or you can see it as free chromatic motion.

Incidentally with McCoy I tend to hear it more as a pentatonic thing than a modal thing. It’s like taking notes from the pentatonic scale an organising into chords. Same with lines that jump around in fourths within the pentatonic. Wayne did this a lot of course.

You can obviously sub pentatonics in for various chords and scales. The Db major/Bbm pent on G7 is an obvious example.

I agree with that as an accurate way to look at the lines. Although, you can hear him moving the quartal chord shapes which replaces the tonal function and sound of the chords with the modal one.

Btw does anyone feel it’s easy to stereotype McCoy’s playing as the ‘BOM bam bam’ guy?

Yes haha. I watch the smalls cam and like half of the pianists play like that at times.

He was such an elegant and versatile player and his old school ballads playing is just gorgeous.

I agree.

[Maaj12]

Yes, Reg. Nat Birchall was one of the modal hard-bop musicians inspired the OP to create this thread according to his first post.
After hearing him, I'm not surprised that Bird and Trane are among his early influencers.

Afro Trane was one of Nat's solo albums, looks like he played all the instruments

These are the albums that I have been listening to lately that I would consider modal, maybe "modern modal" ???

The Infinite | nat birchall

Cloud 10 | Chip Wickham

The Temple Within | Matthew Halsall

[Maaj12]

Maaj12 -

I'm glad you're still with us. Listening is good but are you playing anything? If you are then 'So What' is as good a starting point as any. It can be just C maj and Db maj (D and Eb Dorian) but there are lots of little tricks to make it more interesting. Details on request :-)

Yes still here,
So What has been the practice lately, but will have a look at the Bill Evan's tune, do love me some m9. Will have to look up some grips of for the sharp 11s

And please, a few tricks and tips would be appreciated

[ragman1]

This is a modal playing....not for beginners...!!!

No, not for beginners.

I'll tell you why I asked. You may not agree but here it is anyway! I'm not convinced that quartal harmony is the same as modal playing. Obviously quartal chords require a modal approach but then so does any altered chord. Also, any ordinary chord can be played with modes.

Quartal chords are actually diatonic. They're merely rearrangements of ordinary chords, that's all. A quartal minor chord is really just a m11. That's just a diatonically extended minor chord, not an altered one. It's the sound that's important, that's what grabs the ear.

Modal tunes are written as modal tunes or exercises, like So What. Rearranging a set form, like a Cm blues, doesn't make it a modal tune. It's still just a 12-bar blues but with quartal chords instead of m7's or m6's. That's not necessarily a modal tune. I could reharmonise, say, Autumn Leaves with quartal harmony. Those harmonies would require a modal approach using, say, pentaonics but it's still Autumn Leaves.

Bottom line, maybe, all quartal hamony tunes are modal but not all modal tunes are quartal. That Bill Evans tune I posted is unquestionably modal but there are no quartal harmonies in it.

That's my take on it anyway.