Getting started with modal Jazz

[grahambop]

I think the constraints Miles imposed made the solos have a certain consistent mood, I mean it’s all quite atmospheric and fairly easy to follow. Probably why it was so popular, it seems a lot of non-jazz fans liked it. I’m not sure having Coltrane playing more tempestuous solos would have helped in this instance!

Anyway here’s the Bill Evans sleeve note:

Bill Evans' Kind Of Blue Liner Notes

[ragman1]

Thanks for that. I think one can hear that the whole album was pretty energetic and spontaneous. I have to say, though, that it doesn't actually say there that Miles dictated that the solos remain strictly diatonic. But I think I've seen that said in something else I've read since, can't remember what. This was after the hoo-ha here about it.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Ragman - What is your critical assessment of your own solos on So What, herein?

(and why do you go by the name “Ragman”?)

[mr. beaumont]

Rag is originally from Ragtown, GD set that's big rivals with the Cooper Park. Chicago hood shit. He's an OG.

Or at least that's what I think every time I see his name.

[pamosmusic]

I think the constraints Miles imposed made the solos have a certain consistent mood, I mean it’s all quite atmospheric and fairly easy to follow. Probably why it was so popular, it seems a lot of non-jazz fans liked it. I’m not sure having Coltrane playing more tempestuous solos would have helped in this instance!

Anyway here’s the Bill Evans sleeve note:

Bill Evans' Kind Of Blue Liner Notes

oh interesting. I’ve never heard that about the “rules.” Makes sense though.

I transcribed his solo many moons ago and I remember the only non diatonic note being a C# over D minor in the first chorus. Kind of wild how inside it was.

I always think it’s fun to see some of these cool developments in real time. Like Miles totally not hanging with Charlie Parker on that early bebop stuff or Coltrane playing the sort of mechanical Giant Steps solo. McCoy Tyner on his first album or two when he hasn’t quite figured his fourths thing out. And then seeing what it all turns into. Coltrane just demolishing those changes later (or even on Countdown on the same record). McCoy in the classic Quartet. Miles in his cool period.

kind of gives lie to the idea of genius being innate. You can hear those dudes all working at in on record. Very cool thing to have.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Rag is originally from Ragtown, GD set that's big rivals with the Cooper Park. Chicago hood shit. He's an OG.

Or at least that's what I think every time I see his name.

Ok, what is an OG again?

[mr. beaumont]

Ok, what is an OG again?

Original Guitarist

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

But seriously, does it have something to do with moodiness, or perhaps working at a car wash? It’s an unusual thing to call oneself.

[Litterick]

yeah ok so even this isn’t an example. Bailey spent years playing lounge jazz gigs and in commercial dance bands and so on. People said that he sounded like Jim hall at that stage .

As for the harmonic and textural approach approach he developed he was really influenced by early Schoenberg, Webern and Messiaen which tracks.

When playing in the band that supported Morecambe and Wise at the Blackpool Pavilion, Bailey would use the time between musical numbers to practice improvisation. Eric Morecambe once noticed, and made a joke of it.

Webern was an admitted influence in turning Bailey from a swinging guitarist to a free improviser. I have not read anything that claims Schoenberg and Messiaen were also responsible.

Bailey's first attempts at new music were with Joseph Holbrooke, the trio he formed with Gavin Bryars on bass and Tony Oxley on drums. Their only released recording (at least before their reunion in 1998) was a ten and a half minute rehearsal tape of Coltrane's "Miles' Mode", which fits nicely with this thread.

Musicians doing unusual work are usually working with recognition of the tradition, just as visual artists do: the Campbell's soup cans and their musical equivalents only seem random and perverse to those who are unaware of the tradition.

[ragman1]

Ragman - What is your critical assessment of your own solos on So What, herein?

Pretty crappy, obviously. Why, are you comparing me with Coltrane? Gosh, that's amazing :-)

(and why do you go by the name “Ragman”?)

Ah, now that is a mystery. No one knows.

[ragman1]

Here you are then, Eva, just for you, another work of towering genius to feast your ears on. You've got be good to do this, you know... really good

All right, so it's a bit out of tune. Who cares? I'm an ARTIST!

[Lionelsax]

[GuyBoden]

quite a few people believe Mike would have achieved wider recognition if he’d moved to London. But yes he’s played with loads of people and done lots of stuff and taught a lot of fine guitar players. I think Mike Outram was a student for instance.

Yes, he taught a lot of fine players and some very bad players, like me.

Stuart McCallum was his pupil, an amazing player.

Mike Outram's tone/lines sounded very similar Mike Walker's for many years, Mike Outram is another amazing player.

[GuyBoden]

Modal Harmony creates Functional movement with the use of Characteristic Pitch organization.

Obvious stuff, but here are the Characteristic Notes for Modal from my old lessons.

The 2nd note of Phrygian Mode is the mode's character note, which distinguishes this mode's sound.

The 6th note of Aeolian Mode 6 is the mode's character note, which distinguishes this mode's sound.

The 6th note of Dorian Mode 2 is the mode's character note, which distinguishes this mode's sound.

The 7th note of Mixolydian Mode 5 is the mode's character note, which distinguishes this mode's sound.

The 4th note of Lydian Mode is the mode's character note, which distinguishes this mode's sound.

[ragman1]

Lionel, that was one of the best things you've ever done. It was magnificent! Really professional, swinging, phrasing, rhythmical... you could have played in Miles' band with that.

I take off my hat to you. Brilliant :-)

Hello, pussy cat!

[ragman1]

Yes, he taught a lot of fine players and some very bad players, like me.

Stuart McCallum was his pupil, an amazing player.

Mike Outram's tone/lines sounded very similar Mike Walker's for many years, Mike Outram is another amazing player.

I stand corrected. Yes, he taught people :-)

[grahambop]

(and why do you go by the name “Ragman”?)

That name always makes me think of ‘rag-and-bone man’, perhaps he used to be one?

[kris]

That name always makes me think of ‘rag-and-bone man’, perhaps he used to be one?

Where did his interest in jazz come from?what's in these bags?

[Reg]

Obvious stuff, but here are the Characteristic Notes for Modal from my old lessons.

The 2nd note of Phrygian Mode is the mode's character note, which distinguishes this mode's sound.

The 6th note of Aeolian Mode 6 is the mode's character note, which distinguishes this mode's sound.

The 6th note of Dorian Mode 2 is the mode's character note, which distinguishes this mode's sound.

The 7th note of Mixolydian Mode 5 is the mode's character note, which distinguishes this mode's sound.

The 4th note of Lydian Mode is the mode's character note, which distinguishes this mode's sound.

Thanks Guy, and yes it should be Obvious... but most don't seem to understand what the notes are and how they can work etc.

Even to make more Obvious

Ionian......... natural 4th
Dorian........ natural 6th
Phrygian.....b2
Lydian........ #4
Mixolydian..b7
Aeolian...... b6

Locrian ... would be b5, but is generally not used because of the CP being a Chord tone of the Tonic Chord.

There is more info... functional melodic and harmonic guidelines, polymodal but who cares.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Here you are then, Eva, just for you, another work of towering genius to feast your ears on. You've got be good to do this, you know... really good

All right, so it's a bit out of tune. Who cares? I'm an ARTIST!

Well thanks, that's a little better. But I'm talking about something specific. Antecedent/consequent phrasing. Connect your ideas logically/thematically, instead of randomly.

Can you do what Trane did in the first eight bars? He played a simple two-bar idea, then answered it in the next two bars. Then he played a more elaborate version of the first idea, then replayed the answer. Then he played another idea three times (with variation), then answered it. And so on.

So - It can be any idea, it doesn't have to be a gold record idea. Give it a try! Then keep after it.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Where did his interest in jazz come from?what's in these bags?

Lol, and is he schizophrenic yet? No? Fire it up!

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Pretty crappy, obviously. Why, are you comparing me with Coltrane? Gosh, that's amazing :-)



Ah, now that is a mystery. No one knows.

Well, I didn't say they were crappy. Why do you think they are, and what would you change?

(you don't have to answer of course, just talking critically about improv)

[Bobby Timmons]

You guys don't know that a rag is a type of a piece of music? Lol

[Christian Miller]

When playing in the band that supported Morecambe and Wise at the Blackpool Pavilion, Bailey would use the time between musical numbers to practice improvisation. Eric Morecambe once noticed, and made a joke of it.

Oh to have been a fly on the wall. The wrong notes, but not necessarily in the wrong order.

Webern was an admitted influence in turning Bailey from a swinging guitarist to a free improviser. I have not read anything that claims Schoenberg and Messiaen were also responsible.

He talks about it in his book 'Improvisation' (which I think might be out of print), which is very very good and a massive influence on a lot of my thinking, even where I violently disagree with it (he's so rude about jazz haha, but I oddly respect it). Actually checking the book - he mentions Webern and early Schoenberg as influences (not late Schoenberg of course that's frightfully conservative for any self respecting mid 1960s avant garde firebrand), He doesn't mention Messiaen actually in that context, can't remember if he does elsewhere in terms of his own music.

Musicians doing unusual work are usually working with recognition of the tradition, just as visual artists do: the Campbell's soup cans and their musical equivalents only seem random and perverse to those who are unaware of the tradition.

Of course in free improvisation there is a tradition now - they made it. It's very hard to escape the influence of that music when you do non-idiomatic improvisation. Music students transcribe Evan Parker records to learn how to free. So it becomes an idiom. Which it kind of was anyway. So it goes.

[Lionelsax]

Lionel, that was one of the best things you've ever done. It was magnificent! Really professional, swinging, phrasing, rhythmical... you could have played in Miles' band with that.

I take off my hat to you. Brilliant :-)

Hello, pussy cat!

Thanks, that's just a question of recording. Sometimes it sounds good, sometimes it sounds bad.
With real people (other than myself) I play better even if it's hard to meet people who understand what I am doing and don't get lost.
About my lovely pussy, I've got her ashes.