Getting started with modal Jazz

[ragman1]

Yes still here,
So What has been the practice lately, but will have a look at the Bill Evan's tune, do love me some m9. Will have to look up some grips of for the sharp 11s

And please, a few tricks and tips would be appreciated

Okay. Give me a short while to organise a coherent response :-)

[kris]

[ragman1]

Maaj12 -

Right, So What... or, rather, ways to make playing continuously over a Dm chord a bit more interesting (and that can be applied to the Ebm by moving it up).

First, if you look at transcriptions of the famous players, they don't do much more than play Dorian. Which is basically the C major scale notes.

You have by default the natural B which gives it a m6 sound, which is nice. One ought to be able to play nicely and melodically with the Dorian sound first, no question. You have to settle that first.

Here are some other ideas. You honestly don't want to overdo all this because it'll start sounding stranger than it should. So...

1) Use the D melodic minor scale. That is actually the same as the D Dorian notes except for the C#. But just the use of that one note will grab the ear. Experiment with it. Pop it in suddenly and it's fantastic. Use it all the time and the impact is lost.

2) Use the Dm pentatonic. That's straightforward. But because you're playing in C major you can also use the Am and Em pentatonics. So experiment with those sounds too. Don't overdo any blue notes, it's not that kind of tune.

3) It's a rule that a major or minor one chord can be enhanced by popping in its V chord. The blues guys do that a lot. In other words, pop in an A7 over the continuous Dm sound.

But you can make it far more interesting than that. Play the A7 as if it were altered. In other words use A7alt or Bb melodic minor. That works, sounds great, and resolves effortlessly back into Dm.

You can also use the A wholetone scale: A B C# Eb F G A.

4) Minor chords occur in major keys three times. Dm is in C major, F major and Bb major. So you can apply to the Dm all the tricks you used with C to the other two. So pop in lines from F and Bb major now and then.

5) There are other tricks you could use.

There's chromatics. Join two scale notes with the one in between, like B Bb A or G Gb F, and so on.

Then there's what they call slip-sliding where you move very quickly out of position by one fret and then back again. That's effective.

There's patterns (aka sequences) where a short three or four-note pattern is repeated up or down the neck, remembering to resolve it nicely back into Dm.

6) There's the use of triads going up in m3rds. Over Dm play Dm (D F A), Fm (F Ab C), Abm (Ab B Eb), Bm (B D F#) which miraculously brings you back to Dm again (D F A). Just pop them in quickly sometime.

That's enough tricks, isn't it? But the real thing here is your phrasing. Listen to other players' phrasing, where and how they start a line and finish it. It won't necessarily start on beat 1 of the bar and will frequently cross bar lines.

But, above all, be melodic and interesting. And don't overdo the out sounds. There's plenty of time. Less is more.

Good luck. Experiment. It's fun :-)

[Maaj12]

Nice

Thanks Ragman, lots to work on

[Irishmuso]

Maaj12 -

there are lots of little tricks to make it more interesting. Details on request :-)

In the meantime here's an interesting little number, 'Time Remembered' by Bill Evans.

Thanks for sharing this and recording it. Where I live it's still the 70s in jazz terms so 'Time Remembered' is pretty contemporary and I'm going to give it an airing with our little combo.

As for the little tricks for 'So What', I'd love to read what you suggest for this

[Irishmuso]

Maaj12 -

Right, So What... or, rather, ways to make playing continuously over a Dm chord a bit more interesting (and that can be applied to the Ebm by moving it up).

Thank you!

[Christian Miller]

The most important thing about modal playing as far as I’m concerned is to play strong rhythmic phrases.

[kris]

The most important thing about modal playing as far as I’m concerned is to play strong rhythmic phrases.

Jazz is rhythm music... first of all.

[ccroft]

+3 on rhythm and phrasing.

Been playing So What off and on for 50 some years. Talk of named chords and scales can help with new ideas, but to me it sort of misses the point of modal playing. The first 16 and last 8 are all based around the white keys. That's the sand-box. It's all fair game.

All clusters of those notes are acceptable when they go somewhere nice. How do you properly name these chords anyway? Are we playing Em7, G6, G / E or is it G6 /D? We can play Fmaj7b5 or Bmin7b5, but should they even be named like that? Isn't it a hold over from functional stuff? I guess for guitar they're just 'grips'.

I think of modal playing as a set of notes to start with, and approach notes and chromatic stuff as needed for treason. Right up to the point of McCoy. Free the mind and the fingers will follow :-) And don't forget that last 8.

NOT edited to correct spelling. Miss-typed tension and it corrected to treason. I like it better.

[Lionelsax]

+3 on rhythm and phrasing.

Been playing So What off and on for 50 some years. Talk of named chords and scales can help with new ideas, but to me it sort of misses the point of modal playing. The first 16 and last 8 are all based around the white keys. That's the sand-box. It's all fair game.

All clusters of those notes are acceptable when they go somewhere nice. How do you properly name these chords anyway? Are we playing Em7, G6, G / E or is it G6 /D? We can play Fmaj7b5 or Bmin7b5, but should they even be named like that? Isn't it a hold over from functional stuff? I guess for guitar they're just 'grips'.

I think of modal playing as a set of notes to start with, and approach notes and chromatic stuff as needed for treason. Right up to the point of McCoy. Free the mind and the fingers will follow :-) And don't forget that last 8.

NOT edited to correct spelling. Miss-typed tension and it corrected to treason. I like it better.

Yes, it begins at 3:38

[Reg]

yea... try using the CP or "B"as a typical modal function. Notice the the voicings use a B resolving to A for answer to the Bass line, which also uses the "B" on a weak rhythmic location.

This is more of old typical use. The Other way is to establish the CP or "B" as a Tonic. *a little more difficult.

Generally what one doesn't want to do is.... mix up the usage.

Try playing a different mode....


ccroft... Yea the camouflage thing can just be that..... to help break down the Maj/Min functional sound.

I mean generally the point of modal is to have the target mode..... become and feel like a Tonic. Or at rest etc...

At least that's how I shown back in the 60's... and later taught more theoretically etc...

Maaj12... yea Rag has some standard great Ideas... but rhythm and unorganized melodic ideas used randomly or in standard Maj/Min functional typical usage .... is not Modal, it's trying to camouflage playing in standard Maj/Min functional and calling it Modal. Not a bad thing.... It's actually great.

Here's an old Vid of The Real Guitarist I made years ago for this forum... It's far from perfect... but it's at least modally organized with some of the use of CP's, but really more of using Modal Characteristic sounds in somewhat straight ahead playing... a mixture of approaches.

[pamosmusic]

Maaj12 -

Right, So What... or, rather, ways to make playing continuously over a Dm chord a bit more interesting (and that can be applied to the Ebm by moving it up).

First, if you look at transcriptions of the famous players, they don't do much more than play Dorian. Which is basically the C major scale notes.

You have by default the natural B which gives it a m6 sound, which is nice. One ought to be able to play nicely and melodically with the Dorian sound first, no question. You have to settle that first.

Here are some other ideas. You honestly don't want to overdo all this because it'll start sounding stranger than it should. So...

1) Use the D melodic minor scale. That is actually the same as the D Dorian notes except for the C#. But just the use of that one note will grab the ear. Experiment with it. Pop it in suddenly and it's fantastic. Use it all the time and the impact is lost.

2) Use the Dm pentatonic. That's straightforward. But because you're playing in C major you can also use the Am and Em pentatonics. So experiment with those sounds too. Don't overdo any blue notes, it's not that kind of tune.

3) It's a rule that a major or minor one chord can be enhanced by popping in its V chord. The blues guys do that a lot. In other words, pop in an A7 over the continuous Dm sound.

But you can make it far more interesting than that. Play the A7 as if it were altered. In other words use A7alt or Bb melodic minor. That works, sounds great, and resolves effortlessly back into Dm.

You can also use the A wholetone scale: A B C# Eb F G A.

4) Minor chords occur in major keys three times. Dm is in C major, F major and Bb major. So you can apply to the Dm all the tricks you used with C to the other two. So pop in lines from F and Bb major now and then.

5) There are other tricks you could use.

There's chromatics. Join two scale notes with the one in between, like B Bb A or G Gb F, and so on.

Then there's what they call slip-sliding where you move very quickly out of position by one fret and then back again. That's effective.

There's patterns (aka sequences) where a short three or four-note pattern is repeated up or down the neck, remembering to resolve it nicely back into Dm.

6) There's the use of triads going up in m3rds. Over Dm play Dm (D F A), Fm (F Ab C), Abm (Ab B Eb), Bm (B D F#) which miraculously brings you back to Dm again (D F A). Just pop them in quickly sometime.

That's enough tricks, isn't it? But the real thing here is your phrasing. Listen to other players' phrasing, where and how they start a line and finish it. It won't necessarily start on beat 1 of the bar and will frequently cross bar lines.

But, above all, be melodic and interesting. And don't overdo the out sounds. There's plenty of time. Less is more.

Good luck. Experiment. It's fun :-)

A lot of good stuff in here.

I might note that your latter point about using patterns is also an effective way to work up vocabulary in the diatonic scale (i.e. your first, most important step).

Playing through a scale in intervals, triads or inversions, patterns or cells or whatever. All good ways of working up some material in the diatonic scale by itself.

[ragman1]

Maaj12... yea Rag has some standard great Ideas... but rhythm and unorganized melodic ideas used randomly or in standard Maj/Min functional typical usage .... is not Modal, it's trying to camouflage playing in standard Maj/Min functional and calling it Modal. Not a bad thing.... It's actually great.

Well, make up your mind, Reg! Trying to camouflage 'maj/min functional' ( whatever that means) and calling it modal is not great at all, it's camouflage! In other words, a deception, something false. If I've understood what you meant at all, and I'm not sure I do.

As I kept saying in that post, the basic tonality is Dorian. No question about it. That should come through all the time. But going on and on and on for bar after bar with C maj is tedious*. Even the pros found it wearisome. Coltrane just resorted to playing fast runs up and down. Adderley was slightly better and Evans played chordal sounds. But I'm fairly sure they were just doing what Miles told them.

Popping in (my expression) interesting colour sounds here and there lifts it. It's more interesting for both player and listener. That's all there is to it. It's not a substitute or an escape from the basic idea, feel and sound.

If I've understood you correctly, that is. I may not have done, in which case I apologise.

* | 16 + 8 + 8 | 16 + 8 + 8 |

That's twenty-four bars in D Dorian (C major) over multiple choruses. A bit much for anyone, I'd say!

[ragman1]

Here's something I did the other day. I don't pretend it's much good but it does do something. I only go crazy once :-)

Whether it's really 'So What', of course, I leave to you. I find the most difficult thing is keeping track of the bars.

[ragman1]

Sorry, me again.

I have to say I'm having serious misgivings about this tune. The head's brilliant, no question. We can take that as read. But the rest of it is not so good. You might be in for a rant here!

When the great John Coltrane just doodles up and down and starts playing bugle calls I think he's trying to tell us something. Miles, of course, plays it sparsely, making superb use of the good notes, but then leaves it up to the others.

There's a video of a live performance with a slightly different line up. Miles started immediately with blue notes. The piano player played bebop lines over it, which was much better, and the bass player looked bored. Coltrane did his usual thing. Like he was just obeying orders.

We know 'So What' is always recommended for beginners to learn modal playing. What could be simpler than all the white notes over a D minor? Child's play! But in practice it's not easy due to the lack of variety and the demand on the improviser to make it interesting. Apart from going into Ebm, of course.

So I suspect it's a teacher-thing. Cerebrally it fits the idea wonderfully but in real life it's not so simple. So maaj12, I apologise if I've led you astray. You'll be fine for one chorus... after that, good luck. Better learn some crazy stuff :-)

Here's a video, more restrained this time. Abysmal quality, naturally.

What I'd really like is for all you others to have a go at it. Graham could do some of his bebop stuff, that would be good. Jeff could try it too if he's got time. Nevershouldhavesoldit would be interesting too. And I don't see how Kris could resist it :-)

Dragging stuff up from the vault is allowed. At least 3 choruses otherwise it's not a fair test. Have a go. Hell, I might learn something new and probably will.

[supersoul]

So What is only one example of a modal tune, and it might not be a great example. You're right, 16 bars of D Dorian, 8 bars of Eb Dorian, 8 bars of D Dorian repeat it's hard to make something interesting.

Maybe a more interesting tune from the same album is Flamenco Sketches. Series of five different modes: C Ionian, Absus, Bb Ionian, D Phrygian, G Dorian. Spend as long as you want on each mode. The sequence of modal colors gives the piece itself a narrative shape.

[ragman1]

Thanks. I was going to suggest other tunes myself but it's a bit quiet here at the moment. Flamenco Sketches is great music. Mind you, the modes change frequently so one would have to know them pretty well. Would you say it's for beginners?

[supersoul]

Thanks. I was going to suggest other tunes myself but it's a bit quiet here at the moment. Flamenco Sketches is a great idea. Mind you, the modes change frequently so one would have to know them pretty well. Would you say it's for beginners?

All the modes in Flamenco Sketches are from the Diatonic scale. There's no Hungarian Minor or Enigmatic modes to deal with! And I think the recording makes it easy to hear each mode, especially if you're just starting out. Bill Evans is really good at laying out the modal colors (I think he actually wrote it, he just wasn't credited).

[pamosmusic]

Sorry, me again.

I have to say I'm having serious misgivings about this tune. The head's brilliant, no question. We can take that as read. But the rest of it is not so good. You might be in for a rant here!

When the great John Coltrane just doodles up and down and starts playing bugle calls I think he's trying to tell us something. Miles, of course, plays it sparsely, making superb use of the good notes, but then leaves it up to the others.

There's a video of a live performance with a slightly different line up. Miles started immediately with blue notes. The piano player played bebop lines over it, which was much better, and the bass player looked bored. Coltrane did his usual thing. Like he was just obeying orders.

We know 'So What' is always recommended for beginners to learn modal playing. What could be simpler than all the white notes over a D minor? Child's play! But in practice it's not easy due to the lack of variety and the demand on the improviser to make it interesting. Apart from going into Ebm, of course.

So I suspect it's a teacher-thing. Cerebrally it fits the idea wonderfully but in real life it's not so simple. So maaj12, I apologise if I've led you astray. You'll be fine for one chorus... after that, good luck. Better learn some crazy stuff :-)

Here's a video, more restrained this time. Abysmal quality, naturally.

What I'd really like is for all you others to have a go at it. Graham could do some of his bebop stuff, that would be good. Jeff could try it too if he's got time. Nevershouldhavesoldit would be interesting too. And I don't see how Kris could resist it :-)

Dragging stuff up from the vault is allowed. At least 3 choruses otherwise it's not a fair test. Have a go. Hell, I might learn something new and probably will.

hmm. I love so what. Transcribed Miles on it a long time ago. Love Coltrane on it too. Not the most interesting Coltrane you’ll ever hear, but he’s still figuring it out. Impressions at the Half Note (same modes and form) is peak jazz for me. Though that’s for McCoys solo more than for Tranes even.

[ragman1]

(I think he actually wrote it, he just wasn't credited).

Doesn't surprise me :-)

Ok, I'll have another look at it.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Impressions is just Fast So What, so I don’t think Trane disliked it all that much.

[ccroft]

Playing tunes like these over a backing track is my idea of nothing to do. I don't see much fun in playing them without real humans to interact with. And I guess that's why I'm not playing them much these days :-(

BTW: Trane's solo on the Kinda Blue version? I'd like to have that kind of clarity and conviction in my playing. That's what I hear anyways.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

So What and Impressions solos seem to benefit from melodic devices such as repetition, sequences, sentences, periods, (antecedent/ consequent phrases) question and answer, whatever you want to call it.

Such melodic devices tell a story line over a mostly static harmonic grounding.

Like Wes did. (Yes, him again).

[ragman1]

Impressions is just Fast So What, so I don’t think Trane disliked it all that much.

No, it's absolutely not just a fast 'So What'. First off, Coltrane didn't really write Impressions, it was copied from part of Pavanne, a light classical piece by Morton Gould from 1942. That same tune was recorded by any number of musicians at the time. I'll let you check that out.

Second, whereas Coltrane's solos in 'So What' are, as I said, no more than diatonic noodling and bugle call imitations, he let loose on Impressions with all kinds of chromaticism, what I call the crazy stuff. As did Brecker and Dolphy on their versions.

I've no doubt at all that Coltrane felt confined by Miles' versions and reacted by doing his own. But I guess we all have to make up our minds about that.

[ragman1]

Playing tunes like these over a backing track is my idea of nothing to do. I don't see much fun in playing them without real humans to interact with. And I guess that's why I'm not playing them much these days

I'm glad you have that luxury. Not all of us do.

BTW: Trane's solo on the Kinda Blue version? I'd like to have that kind of clarity and conviction in my playing. That's what I hear anyways.

Right :-)