Wynton Marsalis on the importance of aggressive inspiration in education ...

[CliffR]

Listening to people in their 20's 30's and 40's argue about healthcare......don't take this wrong but guys, get a life already. Young people should not be arguing about stuff like this. Next we'll have a poll Geritol vs Centrum Silver. Or maybe a discussion about what denture adhesive is better. Can anyone recommend a good mobility scooter? Canes vs walkers vs wheelchairs. You guys sound dead already.

I'm older than. that. But, turns out I want decent healthcare not just for myself, but for my friends and family, my ageing parents, and the general populace.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

That must have sounded much cleverer in your head than it appears on the forum.

If it were untrue, they would get a raise or quit. If a doctor wants to get rich they don't work in a socialized system. Just talk to a few, like I have. One just has to listen. Lol.

[James W]

Rhetorical questions: how has the arc of socalism progressed in Britain over the last 100 years? How about in America? Do you think it has accelerated in the last 50?

No, on the contrary, around fifty years ago the Nixon Shock occurred which saw the end of the Bretton Woods system and the beginning of Neoliberalism.

[James W]

If it were untrue, they would get a raise or quit. If a doctor wants to get rich they don't work in a socialized system. Just talk to a few, like I have. One just has to listen. Lol.

They're striking to get a raise. How many British doctors have you spoken to?

[CliffR]

If it were untrue, they would get a raise or quit. If a doctor wants to get rich they don't work in a socialized system. Just talk to a few, like I have. One just has to listen. Lol.

Or you could, you know, read. I raised a substantive point about tying quality healthcare to one's employer is not in my view a good idea. Instead you choose to nitpick a minor point I made and make some crack about communism despite my also writing that socialist policies don't imply Marxism. You might also have noticed that I mentioned 'junior' doctors, who don't drive around in BMWs. In the UK, doctors typically train in the NHS and then may take on private work once they are experienced and specialise. Often these same consultants work for the NHS too. I took my degree at a university that also happens to be one of the UK's leading medical schools, so I've met a few doctors in my time. Lol.

[dasein]

im afraid you don’t know what you are talking about.

The problem is you're trying to talk to the average American about European healthcare, which is like trying to explain what an insurance actuary does to a five year old.

Actually, the reverse is even more fun, trying to explain American insurance to Europeans. Seeing the look of horror on their face when you explain what a deductible is. How much things like cancer treatments cost with insurance.

[ruger9]

I never claimed what I believe is perfect. How much about Marx or by Marx have you actually read? Are you aware of the historical conditions in which he wrote? I don't claim Marx's thought was without fault, and nor do I profess to understand all of it nor the many theorists that followed in his wake. But having read a reasonable amount, I decided on balance that his thought has a great deal to offer to anyone seeking means of understanding the systemic nature of capitalism, including why crises occur, its contradictions and overall irrationality.

Incidentally, did you actually read the Oscar Wilde essay I posted above, the one on the Marxism website? Wilde was a libertarian-socialist, fond of Kropotkin, and I find that strain of thought useful to round-out one's knowledge gained from Marx's thought. Anyway, the reason I originally posted that was because you seemed curious about why I dislike charity, the essay might answer your question.

That is your best, most reasonably thought out post in this thread.

[ruger9]

I’m a social Democrat. Which is to say really ****ing boring haha. I think capitalism is powerful but should be stabilised and directed through judicious and evidence based government intervention, such as anti-trust and so on. Everyone hates people like me it seems ….

That's because you refuse to pick one side of the fence and STAY ON YOUR SIDE. "If you're not WITH us, you're AGAINST us." NONSENSE.

Bravo for critical thought and making your own opinions based on ALL the information!

[ruger9]

Eh?



An insulting attitude to take, if I may say so. Many of the freedoms we enjoy today are the result of people striking for much more than simply not being homeless or starving.

be careful... your capitalism is leaking out...

[ruger9]

If socialised medicine is a Bad Thing, why does the Government provide it for veterans? The Veterans Health Administration operates 146 VA Medical Centers with integrated outpatient clinics, 772 Community Based Outpatient Clinics and 134 VA Community Living Centers.

Ask the vets how good the quality of care is.... sure, it's free. But...

Just one example...

Access Denied

[ruger9]

Oh, but I do. I've been around longer than you.

I really don't want to continue on with this because we are WAY off topic, but the "don't worry, we'll be just a little bit socialist" pitch doesn't sell with me, or millions of others. It doesn't work like that. It creeps only as slowly as the resistance disallows. When leftists are off the record and with like minds they say some amazing things about what they really want.

100% true. I've witnessed it over the last 54 years.

[James W]

That's because you refuse to pick one side of the fence and STAY ON YOUR SIDE. "If you're not WITH us, you're AGAINST us." NONSENSE.

Bravo for critical thought and making your own opinions based on ALL the information!

One of the main reasons I'm anti-capitalist is that it is wholly incompatible with life on this planet. The essence of it is endless compound growth - we all know how economies are judged by their growth - but there is only so much of certain resources on this planet, it's becoming an increasingly tall order, species are going extinct. This and global warming and the environmental catastrophe we're already seeing - capitalism got us into this mess, how is it supposed to get us out of it?

Anyway, I don't profess to know all the information but I wouldn't assume someone does do because they refuse to take a side on something.

[mr. beaumont]

One of the main reasons I'm anti-capitalist is that it is wholly incompatible with life on this planet. The essence of it is endless compound growth - we all know how economies are judged by their growth - but there is only so much of certain resources on this planet, it's becoming an increasingly tall order, species are going extinct. This and global warming and the environmental catastrophe we're already seeing - capitalism got us into this mess, how is it supposed to get us out of it?

Anyway, I don't profess to know all the information but I wouldn't assume someone does do because they refuse to take a side on something.

To be fair, it's just humans in general that are incompatible with life on this planet.

Literally, we are like the only species that if we were gone, life on the planet would flourish. It's like us and mosquitoes.

[ruger9]

One of the main reasons I'm anti-capitalist is that it is wholly incompatible with life on this planet. .

Hundreds of years determines this to be a lie.
Without it, we wouldn't have most of the very important things we have, like western medicine.

[ruger9]

To be fair, it's just humans in general that are incompatible with life on this planet.

Literally, we are like the only species that if we were gone, life on the planet would flourish. It's like us and mosquitoes.

And ticks. Please don't forget ticks. Little lifetime-disease-carrying bastards!

[2bornot2bop]

There’s no music in schools anymore. For decades music programs have been cut from schools. That wasn’t the case when Wynton grew up. Music programs are the first thing to be eliminated under school budget cuts. How many great artists have been lost do to a lack of music education in schools?

[bediles]

FWIW (maybe this post is irrelevant after the more political slant for the last few pages) around here a lot of the classical arts are mostly private donor funded, patrons of the arts, rich people's wills etc. There's a shit ton of fundraising going on all the time.

I'm seeing opera more in bars these days which is fun. And people respond to hearing music outside of a traditional environment that they may consider stuffy.

Funding for jazz is tricky, less established institutions and all that comes along with that, what goes into the musical museum etc. We have a dedicated radio station on the FM dial that certainly helps, a fair number of gigs that don't pay much like everywhere. Being a larger centre Jazz is not irrelevant or non-existant surviving only bc of govnt intervention.

It doesn't cost 50K to have a baby here which is nice.

[James W]

Hundreds of years determines this to be a lie.
Without it, we wouldn't have most of the very important things we have, like western medicine.

I'm not talking about the past. I'm talking about the environmental catastrophe that we're already experiencing and which is only going to get worse if we keep travelling down the route that we are, unless things change drastically. We are not on course to achieve net zero emissions, see point number 3 here: The What, When, and How of Net-Zero Emissions | World Resources Institute (wri.org)

I guess it might not scare you, but I for one want to leave something better for future generations.

I, just like Marx in fact would admit that capitalism has had some positive effects, certainly compared to the feudalism which it replaced. Medicine is a fine thing, but to really take advantage these things, we need to transition (some might say revolution) to a socialist society, with a strong green component.

[ruger9]

I'm not talking about the past. I'm talking about the environmental catastrophe that we're already experiencing and which is only going to get worse if we keep travelling down the route that we are, unless things change drastically. We are not on course to achieve net zero emissions, see point number 3 here: The What, When, and How of Net-Zero Emissions | World Resources Institute (wri.org)

I guess it might not scare you, but I for one want to leave something better for future generations.

I, just like Marx in fact would admit that capitalism has had some positive effects, certainly compared to the feudalism which it replaced. Medicine is a fine thing, but to really take advantage these things, we need to transition (some might say revolution) to a socialist society, with a strong green component.

I won't take this thread further astray by talking about "environmental change." Suffice it to say we do not agree on the matter. And of course it's nowhere near as black-and-white as you think it is. Why people refuse to think in shades of grey (which 99% of the time is closer to the actual truth), I will never understand.

The UK probably isn't socialist ENOUGH for you... is there somewhere that is? Currently? China, perhaps?

[RLetson]

Interestingly, what we now call "rockabilly" (the early Elvis and other Sun Records stuff) was called rock and roll back then. They never used the term rockabilly. That term came into fashion sometime later.

I think what is considered to be the "first rock and roll song" is Rocket 88. Sounds more like jump blues to me, but whatever. Great song. Of course there was no "one song" that created rock and roll; it was a progression.

FWIW, "rockabilly" seems to go back at least to 1956--

rockabilly | Etymology, origin and meaning of rockabilly by etymonline

Historical dictionaries depend on print examples, so it's possible that "rockabilly" was in use as a descriptor earlier than the Billboard attestation. Or it might have been a journalist/publicist coinage.

I've come across that "Rocket 88" factoid before, and while the record certainly does sound early-rock-ish and is the product of a black band, to my ear it sounds like a lot of jump blues. Maybe the (retroactively recognized) participation of Ike Turner pushed this record to the front of the queue--or maybe the fact that it got to #1 on the Billboard R&B chart. And the R&B (rhythm & blues) term seems to have been a 1949 coinage of Billboard. (Though the Wikipedia entry cites some Billboard examples of "rhythm and blues" from 1943-44 that I actually did find after a rummage through the magazine's archives.)

What's interesting (and fun) about American popular music, especially after WW1, is how, despite social, economic, and racial barriers, musicians and audiences managed to mingle and mix and steal from each other. (My lily-white mother recalled being at dances with black kids in the late Thirties--mass-teria!) Ragtime, jass, jazz, blues, show tunes, dance crazes, regional styles, records, radio, movies, sheet music--it all went into the soup pot. Blues, swing, western swing, jug band, "jungle music," boogie-woogie, jump blues, R&B, torch songs, saloon songs (says Frank), rockabilly, rock & roll, soul, talking blues, "A Tiskit, a Taskit," "Doggie in the Window" and "Come on-a My House," the dozens, hip-hop, rap, and whatever's goin' on now that I'm too old to dig. (And FWIW part deux, I'm old enough to have been on the listening end of things from the early 1950s.)

None of which touches on Marx or health-care systems, as much as those topics might be worth discussing somewhere.

[ruger9]

FWIW, "rockabilly" seems to go back at least to 1956--

rockabilly | Etymology, origin and meaning of rockabilly by etymonline

Historical dictionaries depend on print examples, so it's possible that "rockabilly" was in use as a descriptor earlier than the Billboard attestation. Or it might have been a journalist/publicist coinage.

I've come across that "Rocket 88" factoid before, and while the record certainly does sound early-rock-ish and is the product of a black band, to my ear it sounds like a lot of jump blues. Maybe the (retroactively recognized) participation of Ike Turner pushed this record to the front of the queue--or maybe the fact that it got to #1 on the Billboard R&B chart. And the R&B (rhythm & blues) term seems to have been a 1949 coinage of Billboard. (Though the Wikipedia entry cites some Billboard examples from 1942-43 that I can't trace without rummaging through the magazine's archives.)

What's interesting (and fun) about American popular music, especially after WW1, is how, despite social, economic, and racial barriers, musicians and audiences managed to mingle and mix and steal from each other. (My lily-white mother recalled being at dances with black kids in the late Thirties--mass-teria!) Ragtime, jass, jazz, blues, show tunes, dance crazes, regional styles, records, radio, movies, sheet music--it all went into the soup pot. Blues, swing, western swing, jug band, "jungle music," boogie-woogie, jump blues, R&B, torch songs, saloon songs (says Frank), rockabilly, rock & roll, soul, talking blues, "A Tiskit, a Taskit," "Doggie in the Window" and "Come on-a My House," the dozens, hip-hop, rap, and whatever's goin' on now that I'm too old to dig. (And FWIW part deux, I'm old enough to have been on the listening end of things from the early 1950s.)

None of which touches on Marx or health-care systems, as much as those topics might be worth discussing somewhere.

Well, I got my info ("we never called it rockabilly") from the horses' mouths: the guys who actually played it. Carl Perkins, Billy Lee Riley, Jerry Lee Lewis... from interviews over the years. They called it rock and roll. I have a feeling "rockaBILLY" was a marketing strategy in an effort to get the hillbillies in on listening to the new music.

[mr. beaumont]

Well, environmental change is absolutely real. And we are headed for eventual disaster.

But not as soon as people will tell you. But the thing is, things will take generations to fix. But nobody cares, because it won't effect them or their kids, or their grandkids. Humans are remarkably short-sighted.

Basically, you can say to people "Hey, if you fix this it will greatly benefit people who live 500 years from now." And people's response is inevitably, "but what's in it for me now?"

[RLetson]

That's fine. And whatever a given informant says at Time X doesn't change the fact that there's a print exemplar from Time Y, and print is what an etymological dictionary generally documents. That's the difference between lexicography and journalism/scholarship. (I'm not sure whether the historical dictionary-makers are taking advantage of the exemplars available from digitally-preserved media sources.)

[CliffR]

The UK probably isn't socialist ENOUGH for you... is there somewhere that is? Currently? China, perhaps?

I don't get it. Time and again James has tried to discuss these issues in good faith, and you keep resorting to this kind of bullshit. Aren't you the guy who used to be a lawyer? Is this the sort of rhetoric you'd employ professionally?

[DawgBone]

After digging a long trench all morning I worked out a pretty sweet deal on an old school H-D project today. I might as well have one, I play enough of their corporate events!

Glad there are guys willing to help foot the medical bill if I wreck and am injured enjoying higher risk behaviors like motorcycling. Comforting.

Also of comfort is that the good lord has promised that earth will endure forever throughout the generations regardless of what lies the jet set elite have peddled since the 70's. Ecclesiastes 1:4

Anyhow, had enough of this thread myself. Not danceable enough and the stench of collectivism makes bad incense. Enjoy!