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Originally Posted by James W
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04-27-2023 07:25 AM
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Ah yes, just a meme, no evidence to contradict me. Originally Posted by ruger9
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Yes well, I am not interested in discriminating on the basis of income. The fact remains that the US system is both more expensive with a worse outcome, in toto. Originally Posted by jameslovestal
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Worse outcome? Let's see YOUR facts that you keep heralding. Originally Posted by James W
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I've already posted some links containing some facts. But if all you're going to do is post silly memes and pics which prove nothing, I'm afraid I won't bother communicating with you. Originally Posted by ruger9
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lol buh-bye Originally Posted by James W
PS check the link about Marxism killing millions of people...
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Having lived in the US for 11-12 years, I can say I found the American healthcare system to be excellent. Because my employers provided top-notch health insurance. I wouldn't want to find out how bad things might get if I had decided to quit, retire, was made redundant, or engaged in industrial action. Being at the mercy of your employer for the quality of your healthcare doesn't seem like a particularly progressive approach to me.
On the other hand, since coming back to the UK I've noticed the NHS is definitely under strain from when I left back in the early aughts. It's still fantastic, however. My American wife can't get over how great it is.
Many of us in the UK and Europe believe socialist policies are for the good, but that doesn't make us Marxists. In the UK we have a great socialised health system (which the right-wing government has been underfunding for many years now - the British Medical Association says, accounting for inflation, junior doctors' pay has fallen by 26% since 2008). We have socialised housing, unemployment and sick pay, free museums and art galleries, etc etc.
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I checked it. But I am not a Stalinist nor a Maoist, which most Marxists would agree were perversions of Marx's ideas. I'd also point out to the huge death tolls perpetrated by capitalism and Christianity; in the forms of Imperialism, Colonialism, genocide and the wars associated with these things. Originally Posted by ruger9
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See... there you go again.... ONLY what YOU believe in is perfect. Critical thinkers like myself can admit the failings of Capitalism, et al. I look for truth in all things, even when it goes against something I believe, because I am always trying to get to the truth. But you immediately claim the deaths caused by marxism were from "perversions" of it by other people LOL. Right: "they did it wrong." Right: Karl Marx's polices didn't kill anyone. Got it. LOL. Originally Posted by James W
Someday, when you get wiser, perhaps you will start to think critically, and examine even your own beliefs, in search of truths. Beliefs and truths are not the same thing. Your rose colored glasses continue to cloud your thinking.
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Listening to people in their 20's 30's and 40's argue about healthcare......don't take this wrong but guys, get a life already. Young people should not be arguing about stuff like this. Next we'll have a poll Geritol vs Centrum Silver. Or maybe a discussion about what denture adhesive is better. Can anyone recommend a good mobility scooter? Canes vs walkers vs wheelchairs. You guys sound dead already.
My priest builds coffins I'm just going to pay out of pocket. Free crap is worth what you pay for it unless we are talking about eternity with the Lord or someone gifting me a Les Paul. Insurance is a misnomer of sorts, I don't believe in it. I don't have it on my home, my health, my gear, my dogs, or any other crap except my truck cause they forced me to buy it. The lord gives and the lord takes away. Very simple.
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I never claimed what I believe is perfect. How much about Marx or by Marx have you actually read? Are you aware of the historical conditions in which he wrote? I don't claim Marx's thought was without fault, and nor do I profess to understand all of it nor the many theorists that followed in his wake. But having read a reasonable amount, I decided on balance that his thought has a great deal to offer to anyone seeking means of understanding the systemic nature of capitalism, including why crises occur, its contradictions and overall irrationality. Originally Posted by ruger9
Incidentally, did you actually read the Oscar Wilde essay I posted above, the one on the Marxism website? Wilde was a libertarian-socialist, fond of Kropotkin, and I find that strain of thought useful to round-out one's knowledge gained from Marx's thought. Anyway, the reason I originally posted that was because you seemed curious about why I dislike charity, the essay might answer your question.
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Well if the bankruptcy is due to loss of work you've lost your argument. They didn't break it down. Originally Posted by James W
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Marxism is great on paper. We all share equally in the benefits of our labors. I'm sure many dedicated young marxists would love to spend a summer raising barns, milking cows, cutting wood, and stacking hay at an Amish farm or maybe an old school style kibbutz while contributing to the greater good of the community. Except it doesn't really take into account that some dudes are just more capable of growing longer beards than other guys and that some people are just plain lazy and won't do their fair share. The kibbutz had those problems and had to change the model. Originally Posted by ruger9
I have a friend who is very much about the free stuff. "Everyone deserves access to healthcare" "Everyone should be able to get a college education". I always come back with "everyone deserves to play incredible blues guitar". Not everything can be handed out like candy. For some stuff if you want it you have to work for it. "Touche" is his usual remark to that. At least he is an honest socialist, lol.
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How can one claim that a socialized medicine doctor is "underpaid"? Originally Posted by CliffR
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need".
They'll just have to go shopping for a Hyundai instead of a BMW. C'este la vie.
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Not making any sense? We've been having lots of strikes recently - which as a socialist, I obviously support. Anyway, I'm not sure how you can use that communist maxim to justify giving a pay cut to people who are the backbone of the NHS. Originally Posted by Jazzjourney4Eva
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I don't either, unless it's outright fraud. There are a few well known perps out there. Originally Posted by DawgBone
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It's simple. There is only the collective. Originally Posted by James W
The doctors are servants, nothing more. They're not starving or homeless are they? See? They're fine.
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I think the way many on the internet - perhaps Americans particularly tend to think about this in a binary way. Either it’s capitalism which means minimal or zero state and the Wild West or command economy state socialism on the other. Originally Posted by ruger9
there are other ways of doing things….
I’m a social Democrat. Which is to say really ****ing boring haha. I think capitalism is powerful but should be stabilised and directed through judicious and evidence based government intervention, such as anti-trust and so on. Everyone hates people like me it seems … I expect to be called a Marxist by the right and a centrist or closet Tory by the left.
there’s the public choice type argument that because of the tragedy of the commons, and human self interest the state is doomed to be ineffective in governing public goods. the problem is unless you think there’s some magic juju that the private sector has the handing over of natural monopolies to the private sector would make anything better. Otoh competition is fine; but I don’t think an actual competitive free market has ever been in the interest of any CEO - it is economically rational to seek a monopoly in business and public subsidies from the state; it is not economically rational to support the free market that might allow strong competition. That’s all pretty obvious once you strip away the rhetoric. (Not that I think powerful CEOs have perfect knowledge and are always competent at ensuring market dominance either, particularly in the face of market disruptions due to new tech etc.)
So tbh to me this type of argument seems little better than political technology, a fait accompli for another type of - legal - corruption. It’s consistent IMO of DawgBone to call out Musk. As a filthy liberal I would always support the strengthening of institutions like the courts and other checks and balances within the government to ensure public bodies are held accountable above privatisation of public goods. I don’t think the market would function this way and afiak such a truly functional minimal state capitalist system is without historical precedent.
in any case I’m not sure we live in capitalism so much as a type of rentier system.Last edited by Christian Miller; 04-27-2023 at 09:38 AM.
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Lol. Looks like Wynton is more of a rabble rouser than previously thought.
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Eh? Originally Posted by Jazzjourney4Eva
An insulting attitude to take, if I may say so. Many of the freedoms we enjoy today are the result of people striking for much more than simply not being homeless or starving. Originally Posted by Jazzjourney4Eva
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im afraid you don’t know what you are talking about. Originally Posted by Jazzjourney4Eva
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If socialised medicine is a Bad Thing, why does the Government provide it for veterans? The Veterans Health Administration operates 146 VA Medical Centers with integrated outpatient clinics, 772 Community Based Outpatient Clinics and 134 VA Community Living Centers.
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Oh, but I do. I've been around longer than you. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
I really don't want to continue on with this because we are WAY off topic, but the "don't worry, we'll be just a little bit socialist" pitch doesn't sell with me, or millions of others. It doesn't work like that. It creeps only as slowly as the resistance disallows. When leftists are off the record and with like minds they say some amazing things about what they really want.
Rhetorical questions: how has the arc of socalism progressed in Britain over the last 100 years? How about in America? Do you think it has accelerated in the last 50?
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That must have sounded much cleverer in your head than it appears on the forum. Originally Posted by Jazzjourney4Eva
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