Wynton Marsalis on the importance of aggressive inspiration in education ...

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Well, how’s your 1920s/1930s jazz guitar? Because that’s the thoroughness wynton means. You can see this in action at the Julliard, where James Chirillo has written the syllabus for jazz guitar. You start with Nick Lucas and Eddie Lang…

for my part I think swing guitar has helped me understand bop and everything after - but this is the kind of historical background Wynton is talking about. I think it has helped me, but I know plenty of jazz guitarists who wouldn’t be interested in that early stuff at all, and who play great. And of course others who fall in love with an specialise in that era (like the equivalent of baroque lutenists but in jazz.)

I do wonder if that’s like insisting someone who wants to play Chopin or for that matter, Contemporary music, on the modern piano to first play HIP interpretations of early baroque music on harpsichord. The instrument and technique are different, not just the music. It’s not a bad thing per se, but it is a fairly uncompromising take imo.

All things in moderation, lol.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

all agreed. As I say I like the exams. But in the UK they have become a bit too central to a lot of kids music education….

it’s interesting that you are in the states and found the ABRSM exams. I’m not sure how I would teach classical students without it. Quite honestly I don’t know enough repertoire (I’m not really a classical player) to teach my own syllabus so having exam books is incredibly useful.

Yep, it's very helpful especially at the beginning phases. (Teaching little kids is a special challenge that I never worked on, but once they're over about 9 years old, they have enough coordination and strength to go for it, in sensible fashion).

That said, there are other leveled studies out there, just not all in one place that you can get your hands on as quickly. The Stanley Yates series is a good example.

[RLetson]

What I've noticed among the players I've played with, listened to, and learned from is big ears, often (but not inevitably) accompanied by an analytical (or at least appreciative) understanding of what they were hearing and sometimes imitating. Marsalis is a very articulate example of this sensibility--I return to that series of videos he did about swing, as much for his way of talking about the music as for his demonstrations of its operation.

My formal-training background is in literature, with a lot of standard-humanities boot-camp stuff behind that, so Marsalis' poetic-historical take on the aesthetics of jazz resonates with me. (I should point out that my take on literature and art in general is currently not all that fashionable in the academy. In the fig department, I'm all-around moldy.) And as an escaped English teacher, I know very well that deep understanding of historical roots and branches is not essential to enjoying the art. But the best teachers do have that understanding, and it supports the way they teach the skills of enjoyment to non-specialists.

BTW, Kurt Rosenwinkel was just a name to me, and I was pleased to see from the videos posted here how listenable his playing is. I suspect he might have real big ears. Does that mean that he should include older styles in his own performances? I'm with Christian--of course not. But I really dig an artist who knows where the art has been as well as where it might be at the moment.

[Christian Miller]

Are you saying you think Frisell and Lage did NOT study early jazz? For real??? (unless I've misunderstood you)

yes you’ve misunderstood what I’ve said. They definitely both have a strong interest in pre-war jazz

[Christian Miller]

haha. This is the very definition of "school", from the very beginning. I'll NEVER need to know chemistry or calculus, but I had to learn them (poorly). Now... math and algebra I HAVE used. Diagramming sentences? Absolutely no need in life unless you're going to be a writer or a journalist. But reading the classics? Can't do any harm, and most of the time even does some good... even for those who thought it was stupid to have to read them.

IMO this sounds more relevant to the discussion than it is.

Music ultimately not chemistry or grammar even if aspects can reflect those disciplines. Comparisons with STEM subjects are flawed I would say for a number of fundamental reasons. There’s an interesting conversation to be had about this- especially the history of this idea which is ancient- but when discussing music education, I regard this type of comparison as little more than a rhetorical flourish. I could go into my reasons for thinking this, but I’ll leave it for now.

Language is a better analogy, but still flawed.

If we study for instance, Shakespeare, the onus is not on the student to write Shakespearean works in early modern English. I’m not convinced even creative writing students would spend much time doing this. Presumably a journalism student would not explore the grammatical vagaries of Elizabethan English.

So I don’t think there’s a direct comparison. Music is … weird? We actually spend a fair bit of time in jazz writing those faux-Elizabethan sonnets so to speak.

How far do we go with this sort of thing? I’m not sure. I’ve done it myself and used to be super dogmatic that everyone should do the same. These days I think life is not so simple … these rabbit holes go as deep as you like and there’s brilliant musicians who know very little of the history and just play what is current and needed within their immediate community of practice.

Bottom line. What do you teach and how? What do you do in three or four years?

[DawgBone]

Seems most jazz guys are overlooking #4 which is detrimental. Did anyone even mention it in 3 pages instead of just arguing about jazz education and whether it will become like classical music? I wish someone would wake up and realize that jazz is originally low brow working class music. Classical was always the music of the elite. Some try to make jazz a glassed in art piece at a university museum for cork sniffers and hopeful competitors in training for music olympics. It's damaged it. Music should always be entertainment first and for the listener. Actual danceable jazz would probably be revolutionary at this point. I guess I'm glad I play blues. No one ever puts that stuff on a pedestal in the university so it is still music for us low folk.

[dot75]

I guess I'm glad I play blues. No one ever puts that stuff on a pedestal in the university so it is still music for us low folk.

Uh oh...

The Blues: Understanding and Performing an American Art Form | Coursera

[ruger9]

IMO this sounds more relevant to the discussion than it is.

Music ultimately not chemistry or grammar even if aspects can reflect those disciplines. Comparisons with STEM subjects are flawed I would say for a number of fundamental reasons. There’s an interesting conversation to be had about this- especially the history of this idea which is ancient- but when discussing music education, I regard this type of comparison as little more than a rhetorical flourish. I could go into my reasons for thinking this, but I’ll leave it for now.

Language is a better analogy, but still flawed.

If we study for instance, Shakespeare, the onus is not on the student to write Shakespearean works in early modern English. I’m not convinced even creative writing students would spend much time doing this. Presumably a journalism student would not explore the grammatical vagaries of Elizabethan English.

So I don’t think there’s a direct comparison. Music is … weird? We actually spend a fair bit of time in jazz writing those faux-Elizabethan sonnets so to speak.

How far do we go with this sort of thing? I’m not sure. I’ve done it myself and used to be super dogmatic that everyone should do the same. These days I think life is not so simple … these rabbit holes go as deep as you like and there’s brilliant musicians who know very little of the history and just play what is current and needed within their immediate community of practice.

Bottom line. What do you teach and how? What do you do in three or four years?

I disagree a direct connection cannot be made, especially with literature. It's (creating music) EXACTLY the same thing as being a writer, IMO.

[Litterick]

I disagree a direct connection cannot be made, especially with literature. It's (creating music) EXACTLY the same thing as being a writer, IMO.

Not in my experience of doing both.

[DawgBone]

Uh oh...

The Blues: Understanding and Performing an American Art Form | Coursera

You would never learn blues performance at a university. Blues and university have nothing in common unless it's not being able to make your student loan payments or flunking out or getting caught smoking rope in the dorms. First world blues performance lessons. Sounds rich.

[sgcim]

They made all the music teachers in NYC go to an annual meeting where Wynton was the guest speaker.
All I remember was his speech being so stupid, I couldn't stop myself from muttering curses as I walked out on it.
Then there was the time he started putting down Phil Woods on a Jazz Cruise over the mic, and PW's daughter happened to be in the audience.
She complained to the cruise director, and they made him apologize to the audience over the mic.

He should keep his trumpet in his mouth at all times.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

You would never learn blues performance at a university. Blues and university have nothing in common unless it's not being able to make your student loan payments or flunking out or getting caught smoking rope in the dorms. First world blues performance lessons. Sounds rich.

Let's give it a little time. We're dumbing down our schools as rapidly as possible.

[kris]

They made all the music teachers in NYC go to an annual meeting where Wynton was the guest speaker.
All I remember was his speech being so stupid, I couldn't stop myself from muttering curses as I walked out on it.
Then there was the time he started putting down Phil Woods on a Jazz Cruise over the mic, and PW's daughter happened to be in the audience.
She complained to the cruise director, and they made him apologize to the audience over the mic.

He should keep his trumpet in his mouth at all times.

Who cares.
W. Marsalis is a brilliant trumpet player.
He has a point of view on jazz education and tries to present it.
He sees that it has a deeper meaning because it influences the development of jazz music in general.
He is very active as a jazz musician and educator and no one will stop him from doing so.

[pauln]

Todd Rundgren's album Initiation 1975
"The Death of Rock and Roll"

Just the other day I got a call from a friend
"i heard what you been playin' and I think it's a sin
Why can't you make a living like the rest of the boys
Instead of fillin' your head with all that synthesized noise? "

Jackals wait nearby, watching rock and roll die
And no one dared to help it
Vultures fill the sky
I thought we was supposed ta, supposed ta be free
But we all got sold
It must be the death of rock and roll

The critics got together and they started a game
You get your records for nothing
And you call each other names
Things got out of hand and somebody got sore
Now we're all tuning up for the rock and roll war

Time to take up sides, helping rock and roll die
Pick up your check at the window
No one left to cry
I thought we was supposed ta, supposed ta be free
But we all got sold
It must be the death of rock and roll

Nobody paid, nobody played, nobody stayed
Just my lonely guitar
Nobody paid, nobody stayed, nobody played
Just my lonely guitar

[Christian Miller]

I disagree a direct connection cannot be made, especially with literature. It's (creating music) EXACTLY the same thing as being a writer, IMO.

No it’s not ‘EXACTLY’ the same, and I doubt you actually think that. Obviously not. It’s not completely disimilar but that is not the sale as EXACTLY the same.

I’m sure if you want to you can think if several blindingly obvious and fundamental differences as well as similarities between being a writer and a jazz musician. I identified one in my previous post for instance.

It’s… different? Analogies with other subjects may not be a total waste of time, but I think you have to be realistic and specific about the differences and similarities. Which means pedantically talking about details I’m afraid. No one likes doing that because we all want to have Big Ideas.

to whit - I don’t think Wynton is wrong exactly. I don’t think he is right exactly either. It’s more nuanced than that.

[Christian Miller]

They made all the music teachers in NYC go to an annual meeting where Wynton was the guest speaker.
All I remember was his speech being so stupid, I couldn't stop myself from muttering curses as I walked out on it.
Then there was the time he started putting down Phil Woods on a Jazz Cruise over the mic, and PW's daughter happened to be in the audience.
She complained to the cruise director, and they made him apologize to the audience over the mic.

He should keep his trumpet in his mouth at all times.

He hangs out a lot here in the UK now.. I know a lot of people who’ve had lovely experiences, he is to be fair a great teacher. Otoh I don’t doubt what you are saying. It’s almost like he is just one flawed individual like all of us, who also happens to be a great musician with a lot of clout and influence. As a result I think it’s reasonable to look at stuff he says with our critical faculties as we would anyone. But I do think music can be prone to cults of personality and so on….

[ruger9]

Not in my experience of doing both.

Toe-MAY-toe / Toe-MAH-toe

[ruger9]

No it’s not ‘EXACTLY’ the same, and I doubt you actually think that. Obviously not. It’s not completely disimilar but that is not the sale as EXACTLY the same.

I’m sure if you want to you can think if several blindingly obvious and fundamental differences as well as similarities between being a writer and a jazz musician. I identified one in my previous post for instance.

It’s… different? Analogies with other subjects may not be a total waste of time, but I think you have to be realistic and specific about the differences and similarities. Which means pedantically talking about details I’m afraid. No one likes doing that because we all want to have Big Ideas.

to whit - I don’t think Wynton is wrong exactly. I don’t think he is right exactly either. It’s more nuanced than that.

Toe-MAY-toe / Toe-MAH-toe

[Christian Miller]

Toe-MAY-toe / Toe-MAH-toe

the second, and anyone who disagrees is wrong

[Christian Miller]

All things in moderation, lol.

well, yes

[Christian Miller]

Seems most jazz guys are overlooking #4 which is detrimental. Did anyone even mention it in 3 pages instead of just arguing about jazz education and whether it will become like classical music? I wish someone would wake up and realize that jazz is originally low brow working class music. Classical was always the music of the elite. Some try to make jazz a glassed in art piece at a university museum for cork sniffers and hopeful competitors in training for music olympics. It's damaged it. Music should always be entertainment first and for the listener. Actual danceable jazz would probably be revolutionary at this point. I guess I'm glad I play blues. No one ever puts that stuff on a pedestal in the university so it is still music for us low folk.

Classical music was the music of the elite, but not made by the elite. Those composers had rough upbringings, Haydn’s family had to hope the church would take him on as a singer because they couldn’t afford to feed him. For him like many jazz, blues and country musicians, music offered a way out.

And don’t jazz musicians play for the wealthy? We all want to paid. That’s the bottom line. Same for Mozart, same for a jobbing guitar player. These pedestals are all posthumous aren’t they? Mozart died young and impoverished and no one knows where he is buried.

Otoh I spent ten years playing swing dance gigs for technology professionals.

Make of that what you will

[Christian Miller]

Tbh thinking a little about what Dawgbone said…

300 years ago music was not taught at institutions like the Julliard. It was taught by an apprenticeship system at trade schools. Musicians have always been artisans…

perhaps over time a form of music just gets posher. The middle classes want to do it, even the upper classes… I mean in the UK we have best selling folk musicians who happen to be minor aristocracy lol.

[Lionelsax]

Tbh thinking a little about what Dawgbone said…

300 years ago music was not taught at institutions like the Julliard. It was taught by an apprenticeship system at trade schools. Musicians have always been artisans…

My God ! Every time you write something I've got the feeling we've got the same books.
Did you study musicology ?

[Christian Miller]

My God ! Every time you write something I've got the feeling we've got the same books.
Did you study musicology ?

haha close - music education. One book that changed my concept of education was Lave and Wenger’s ‘situated learning’ which isn’t even about music haha; it’s about trade apprenticeships. Have you read it?

i mean all the jazz educators lament the demise of the apprenticeship system… I can’t imagine Wynton being any different …

[RLetson]

A lot of art history can be clarified by answering three questions: Who plays (or paints or writes or acts), who listens (or looks or reads), who pays? There are certainly other important questions, but that socio-economic framework can't be ignored. And since not all artistic activity is professional or life-sustaining, "who pays" actually means "where does the material support for artistic activity come from?" (Which is another way of looking at audiences and reception.)

As Christian points out, the conservatory/university/formal-school institutional machinery didn't always exist--though from the middle ages onward there were insititutional settings where musical training occurred (monasteries, churches) and where something like curricula could be generated. But yes, training in what we would recognize as professional-level music and painting happened in apprenticeship and workshop settings, because they were skill-sets that could be acquired via an apprentice-journeyman-master model. And pro-level musicians like the players Haydn led at Eszterháza were employees or servants or contractors. Individual master-level or rising-star artisans might find patrons (as some poets and dramatists* did), but the notion of the Great Artist developed along with the emergence of the middle classes and the decoupling of patronage from production. As far as I can tell, the professional/commercial writer/dramatist is an invention of the late Renaissance. Music, I suspect, can be seen to follow a similar trajectory.

* Including Shakespeare--happy birthday, Will!