Just the melody.

**kris** · 01-31-2025, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by Mick-7

Just wondering what if anything is off limits, how about if I play just the melody of a Debussy song?

Maybe it was a good idea to exercise the melody of two -voice inventions of J.S. Bach ...?
B, Galbright arranged them for two guitars.

**lawson-stone** · 01-31-2025, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by Mick-7

Frankly, I don't see the point in playing intricate bebop tune heads here like those we played in the study group:

Bebop heads: Donna Lee

I mean, this thread is about playing "just the melody." What is the alternative with Donna Lee, would you play a chord melody of it?

Don't think many here would need 30 minutes to master "just the melody" of Giant Steps.

Seriously, again, for the umpteenth time: you don't make the rules. Don't like "Donna Lee" then don't play it. Why do you keep wanting to dictate to everyone else what they can play?

**lawson-stone** · 01-31-2025, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by kris

You can play "One Note Samba" if you consider "Giant Steps" melodie to be easy...

Reminds me of a great line from the movie "Tombstone."

"Why, Ike... maybe poker's just not your game. I know... let's have a spelling contest!"

**ragman1** · 01-31-2025, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Yeah, who the hell would play blues on a bossa?

<em>

But they didn't, not once. The Ab on the Dm run in Wave is a colour note. It sounds bluesy to us because we're used to it. What he was doing on the treble piano bit echoed that sound. It's not the same as playing blues licks, not at all.

And you'll notice that when Herbie played there wasn't a blue note or sound anywhere. And he had plenty of opportunity. And a lesser player would have put them in all over the place.

**Mick-7** · 01-31-2025, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

Seriously, again, for the umpteenth time: you don't make the rules. Don't like "Donna Lee" then don't play it. Why do you keep wanting to dictate to everyone else what they can play?

I was not "dictating" anything to anyone, just expressing an opinion. Besides, we now know that this exercise has no firm rules... or I suppose "play it for 30 minutes" is the only one left.

**lawson-stone** · 01-31-2025, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Yeah, who the hell would play blues on a bossa?

<em>

Hmmm and I wonder why the A sections of "Wave" are 12-bar lines instead of the usual 8 bars of most of these tunes. And wait! look at that chord progression! Bar 5 and we're on the IV chord! Whooda thunkit???

"Wave" is a very cleverly executed bossa version of a blues with a bridge.

**lawson-stone** · 01-31-2025, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

But they didn't, not once. The Ab on the Dm run in Wave is a colour note. It sounds bluesy to us because we're used to it. What he was doing on the treble piano bit echoed that sound. It's not the same as playing blues licks, not at all.

And you'll notice that when Herbie played there wasn't a blue note or sound anywhere. And he had plenty of opportunity. And a lesser player would have put them in all over the place.

That's actually a real blues phrase pointing to the fact that the A section of "Wave" is harmonically modeled on the 12 bar blues structure. It's a very shrewd gesture, but one that is very satisfying if you are listening.

**kris** · 01-31-2025, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

No, he was NOT a friggin' Brazilian, he came from Virginia. And he wasn't much good at Bossa either. He used to play blues sounds over it which is definitely not Brazilian. Always sounded to me like an easy option on the fly because he couldn't do the real thing properly. But it probably sold records.

Pass, on the other hand, never ever played blues licks over bossa numbers. he knew better.

Here we are, jazz for the masses. Yuk. When you get to 1.25 put a bag on your head.

And how to do it properly if you're American.

How can you write such stupid things .... Shame !!!!

**pamosmusic** · 01-31-2025, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

But they didn't, not once. The Ab on the Dm run in Wave is a colour note. It sounds bluesy to us because we're used to it. What he was doing on the treble piano bit echoed that sound. It's not the same as playing blues licks, not at all.

And you'll notice that when Herbie played there wasn't a blue note or sound anywhere. And he had plenty of opportunity. And a lesser player would have put them in all over the place.

Brother.

That Ab over D minor is often known by another name.

They call it "The Blue Note."

Jobim -- the father of bossa nova -- literally wrote it into the melody. It's a blues scale.

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

That's actually a real blues phrase pointing to the fact that the A section of "Wave" is harmonically modeled on the 12 bar blues structure. It's a very shrewd gesture, but one that is very satisfying if you are listening.

Nice. Yes to this.

It's interesting that a lot of people kind of attribute the tricky chords of a lot of bossa tunes to the jazz influence, but that's probably more likely the influence of the french impressionists. Jobim loved Debussy and Ravel (as did Miles and Bill Evans, and I'm sure loads of others).

The jazz influence is more melodic. Blue notes in the melody. Also he was a big Duke Ellington fan. Later Duke Ellington stuff was all about expanding what blues could do as a harmonic tool, and Jobim does a lot of the same thing too. It's more subtle than the obvious blues lines in his melodies, but still very real.

**lawson-stone** · 01-31-2025, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by pamosmusic

Brother.

That Ab over D minor is often known by another name.

They call it "The Blue Note."

Jobim -- the father of bossa nova -- literally wrote it into the melody. It's a blues scale.

Nice. Yes to this.

It's interesting that a lot of people kind of attribute the tricky chords of a lot of bossa tunes to the jazz influence, but that's probably more likely the influence of the french impressionists. Jobim loved Debussy and Ravel (as did Miles and Bill Evans, and I'm sure loads of others).

The jazz influence is more melodic. Blue notes in the melody. Also he was a big Duke Ellington fan. Later Duke Ellington stuff was all about expanding the blues stuff a real, respected harmonic tool, and Jobim does a lot of the same thing too. It's more subtle than the obvious blues lines in his melodies, but still very real.

Also.... let's be clear. Without the blues, THERE IS NO JAZZ. Blues is not a sub-section of jazz, it is not a sidebar to jazz, blues is an inherent part of the jazz culture and saturates the whole jazz language. If someone is immersed in the world of jazz, and they are writing or playing jazz, they are going to be including blues. It's like inhaling and exhaling. No blues in your jazz, it's just white-bread.

**pamosmusic** · 01-31-2025, 03:44 PM

It's also worth mentioning that attributing blues gestures to "lesser players" and denigrating those sounds as "jazz for the masses, yuk" has kind of a long history and it's not really a very nice history.

Blues is an essential part of jazz. Jobim loved playing with jazz musicians and liberally borrowed from them. He also borrowed liberally from the samba tradition which was often kind of shunned by high society brazilians as being a sort of lower class dance tradition. He loved this stuff and brought it all in with fancy people music like Debussy and the harmonic complexity of that music, and the melodic tools of the cool jazzers, and all that good stuff.

So it's a little weird to imagine that something being a folk music would be an offense to the music of a man who so obviously made that kind of music a part of his creative process.

**John A.** · 01-31-2025, 03:59 PM

So, it seems to me that the point of this thread was to get people to focus on playing the heads to tunes (something most of us tend to neglect compared to improvising and to harmony). That inspired some people to post melodies, some great, some works in progress. Cool either way. But it's not cool to overwhelm the discussion with persnickityness about "rules" and transparent excuses for not posting recordings. Mick-7, you posted one melody, which I give you credit for, but let's just say your account is now way out of balance. Not my place to say it, but I'll say it anyway: participate, or absquatulate.

**ragman1** · 01-31-2025, 04:10 PM

absquatulate

Streuth :-)

I know what it means, I looked it up :-)

**Mick-7** · 01-31-2025, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by John A.

Mick-7, you posted one melody, which I give you credit for, but let's just say your account is now way out of balance. Not my place to say it, but I'll say it anyway: participate, or absquatulate.

Believe I've posted 5 melodies, this thread has gotten so long that I'm not sure but I recall playing: You Don't Know What Love Is, Alone Together, I Can't Get Started With You, I Didn't Know What Time It Was, and lastly Peri's Scope. I plan to record Nardis next (on a Bill Evans kick lately).

Absquatulate - Don't know this tune, isn't it a Charles Mingus composition?

**John A.** · 01-31-2025, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by Mick-7

Believe I've posted 5 melodies, this thread has gotten so long that I'm not sure but I recall playing: You Don't Know What Love Is, Alone Together, I Can't Get Started With You, I Didn't Know What Time It Was, and lastly Peri's Scope. I plan to record Nardis next (on a Bill Evans kick lately).

Absquatulate - Don't know this tune, isn't it a Charles Mingus composition?

I stand corrected as to the number of tunes posted, but the persnicketyness about the rules is still off the hook. Yeah, sure, that's it. A Mingus tune.

**alpop** · 01-31-2025, 04:34 PM

Hey, how about some playing?

I wanted to learn this because it makes my fingers go where they aren't used to going.

**mr. beaumont** · 01-31-2025, 04:50 PM

Liking the playing!

If anybody has paid any attention to the last few "hey, I'm trying this if anybody wants to play along" threads, they've all been about NOT having a bunch of rules/requirements.

**lawson-stone** · 01-31-2025, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by alpop

Hey, how about some playing?

Amen Brother!

**lawson-stone** · 01-31-2025, 05:02 PM

For this one to really work you gotta have a few "chord punches" but otherwise, just the melody.

**lawson-stone** · 01-31-2025, 05:17 PM

This one's been done so I found this clip of my playing "All of Me" with the COUNT BASIE BAND doing the backup track! Kinda makes you want Frank Sinatra instead of that Heisenbergishly uncertain guitarist.

**lawson-stone** · 01-31-2025, 05:20 PM

Last one from the vault today, I promise! But this one is an example of a "jazz original" where you can actually play around with the melody a bit.

I apologize in advance for the longish-chord-melody sections after the head. The chord punches in the head itself are part of the melody.

Unit Seven

**ragman1** · 02-01-2025, 08:01 AM

Here's another great tune. The chords are fun. Not worth doing a video for just the melody.

I suppose I ought to do it in two octaves... another time maybe.

**grahambop** · 02-01-2025, 11:22 AM

I haven’t really got time to record anything at the moment, but here’s something I did before which features quite a long melody, which I embellished a bit. I must have played this tune for years before recording it, so I think it passes the 30-minute rule!

Playing the melody well is just as important as playing a good solo, I think. I just listen to lots of versions, and try to learn better phrasing etc. from my favourite players.