Just the melody.

[GuyBoden]

The 'play the melody for a half hour' seems to improve my melody retention.

But, does anyone have any other ideas for long term melody retention?

[Christian Miller]

Words help

[AllanAllen]

I know I'm a parrot with this, but gigs. Gigs without sheets. When it's time to sink or swim, you either know it or you F'ng don't. Then you'll also learn which ones you can stop practicing and which ones need a little more time.

After enough gigs you'll learn how to slop your way though a few bars you forgot and then claim you were doing a little nod to Jimmy Raney. But playing the actual melody is a much better feeling and start to a tune. You can't slop your way though the heads the whole night, leave some room for mistakes to happen. Not knowing a tune is different than knowing it and making a mistake. You'll know which one is happening when you biff it on stage.

[pamosmusic]

I know I'm a parrot with this, but gigs. Gigs without sheets. When it's time to sink or swim, you either know it or you F'ng don't. Then you'll also learn which ones you can stop practicing and which ones need a little more time.

After enough gigs you'll learn how to slop your way though a few bars you forgot and then claim you were doing a little nod to Jimmy Raney. But playing the actual melody is a much better feeling and start to a tune. You can't slop your way though the heads the whole night, leave some room for mistakes to happen. Not knowing a tune is different than knowing it and making a mistake. You'll know which one is happening when you biff it on stage.

Jimmy Raney really does seem to take issue with stating the entire melody up front, doesn't he?

Good thing he's awesome, I suppose.

[John A.]

The 'play the melody for a half hour' seems to improve my melody retention.

But, does anyone have any other ideas for long term melody retention?

Play the tune with other people. In general that has proven the key to retaining tunes for me. It’s also the best test of whether I’ve really learned it correctly.

[lawson-stone]

Jimmy Raney really does seem to take issue with stating the entire melody up front, doesn't he?

Good thing he's awesome, I suppose.

I actually don't know of a single "world-class" jazz guitarist who just plays the melody up front. They play it, but already it's loaded with improvisational elements. The only exception is probably bebop tunes. But for standards, the improvisation starts in how they state the melody.

[GuyBoden]

I know I'm a parrot with this, but gigs.

How do you retain the melody before the gig?

[John A.]

How do you retain the melody before the gig?

Rehearse.

[AllanAllen]

How do you retain the melody before the gig?

There are tunes I know, ones I almost have down and ones I don't know. The ones in the first two classes will end up on my set lists because they feel about the same to play at home, when I feel safe and comfortable. But when I'm exposed at a gig some of them will vanish from memory completely, those are the ones I almost know, I'll practice those ones more and find the time to practice them by not practicing the ones that came off with ease anymore.

The more songs I learn the more patterns I see and I'm starting to think about music in sentences instead of letters.

I don't need to practice Satin Doll because it's in my blood now, I don't need to practice Blue Bossa because I know it's C minor scale descending from the 5th then I just hear the rest in my head and play it. Here I am speaking to the melody of the tune, there's always a reason to study a tune more.

That's my system anyway.

[GuyBoden]

There are tunes I know, ones I almost have down and ones I don't know. The ones in the first two classes will end up on my set lists because they feel about the same to play at home, when I feel safe and comfortable. But when I'm exposed at a gig some of them will vanish from memory completely, those are the ones I almost know, I'll practice those ones more and find the time to practice them by not practicing the ones that came off with ease anymore.

The more songs I learn the more patterns I see and I'm starting to think about music in sentences instead of letters.

I don't need to practice Satin Doll because it's in my blood now, I don't need to practice Blue Bossa because I know it's C minor scale descending from the 5th then I just hear the rest in my head and play it. Here I am speaking to the melody of the tune, there's always a reason to study a tune more.

That's my system anyway.

Thanks.

Do you sing the words to the melody?

Edit: In my limited experience in groups, the horns play the melody not the guitarists.

[pamosmusic]

I have three lists in iReal ...

the A list are tunes I couldn't forget if I tried. Stella, Another You, All of Me, etc.

the B list are tunes I know well but that I might need to refresh if it's been a while ... How Deep is the Ocean, I Love You, Lady Bird, etc.

the C list are tunes I've learned but that I think are at risk of dropping off ... Come Rain or Come Shine, Everything I Love, Love For Sale

I try to do the C list tunes regularly and practice them like they're new, if not for quite as extended a period of time. The B list tunes I just try to play through on a reasonably regular basis, or maybe work on chord melody, or that kind of thing.

The A list I don't really worry about.

[pamosmusic]

Thanks.

Do you sing the words to the melody?

Edit: In my experience in groups, the horns play the melody not the guitarists.

I play with horns once for every ten times I play trio.

Also, we should probably have the melody together even if we aren't the one playing.

[mr. beaumont]

Spaced repetition is key for getting things in long term memory.

[GuyBoden]

I have three lists in iReal ...

the A list are tunes I couldn't forget if I tried. Stella, Another You, All of Me, etc.

the B list are tunes I know well but that I might need to refresh if it's been a while ... How Deep is the Ocean, I Love You, Lady Bird, etc.

the C list are tunes I've learned but that I think are at risk of dropping off ... Come Rain or Come Shine, Everything I Love, Love For Sale

I try to do the C list tunes regularly and practice them like they're new, if not for quite as extended a period of time. The B list tunes I just try to play through on a reasonably regular basis, or maybe work on chord melody, or that kind of thing.

The A list I don't really worry about.

Spaced repetition is key for getting things in long term memory.

All good advice, that ideally would need to be applied as a regular routine.

Jazz guitar is a lot of commitment, even for a hobby player like myself.

[AllanAllen]

I don't consider a song known without the melody. I start with the melody too, so I'm never really in the position to just know the changes, I mean, unless someone called Ornithology or some other contra-fact.

[alpop]

All good advice, that ideally would need to be applied as a regular routine.

Jazz guitar is a lot of commitment, even for a hobby player like myself.

That second sentence is interesting. How much time do most people devote to a hobby?

I would suggest that hobby players, unless extremely talented, can only study jazz guitar for self-satisfaction, but not actually become jazz musicians.

Apologies if this is a derailment, I will post a melody to get back on track, but the thought popped into my head so I thought I'd share it.

[AllanAllen]

I would suggest that hobby players, unless extremely talented, can only study jazz guitar for self-satisfaction, but not actually become jazz musicians.

I think you're setting the bar too high and gatekeeping. If a hobbyist can play the head to something like Satin Doll and a 2 chorus solo they're a jazz musician. Not on the level of Charlie Parker or Miles Davis, but who is? Everybody starts somewhere and the only threshold I can think of for jazz/not jazz musician are the songs themselves. The genre casts a wide net, and it's not all bebop, sheets of sound, or fusion shredding.

You don't need to transcribe Hendrix Star Spangled Banner to be a blues rocker, you just learn/write some songs and start.

[rpjazzguitar]

Apology in advance for a bit of a thread hijack.

Here are some rules I've heard or inferred.

1. Play the head first and last.

2. Play the head exactly as written. It respects the composer.

3. Solos follow the chord changes, but not the melody.

4. Jazz guitar is played with jazz tone, meaning, apparently, Wes, Kenny, Jim, Barney, Tal -- that ballpark.

5. Jazz is played on standards and jazz standards. Also, originals.

6. Jazz is played against one of a handful of rhythms. Swing, Bossa, maybe a Samba. Generic "latin", whatever that is. A few others.

7. Guitar comping behind a soloist involves chords, not notes.

8. If there's a vocal, it starts at the beginning of the first chorus, not somewhere in the middle of the tune.

There are probably more.

I don't agree with any of them.

My idea of a decent presentation of tune might start with a rubato chorus, with a heavily interpreted melody. Then a reasonably straight vocal. Not strictly what the composer wrote, unless you're playing along with another instrument(s).

Then some solos with the rhythm section trying to create novel backgrounds which support the soloist. This can involve players dropping out, because silence creates a texture. It can involve something like switching to reggae for a chorus, or less.

Comping can involve a mix of chords, guide tone lines, fills, whatever. Some bands will change the harmony on the fly; sidemen with big ears follow a strong leader, who makes cool sounding choices.

If you can sound like Wes, well, everybody is going to like that. But you don't have to. Mr. B's version of Misty sounds awesome to me, to give one example. Not Wes' sound, but also great.

The out-chorus especially can be heavily interpreted and if there's a vamp in the coda, that's an opportunity to take things in yet another direction.

The singer does not have to sing the song straight. They can, but they don't have to. Playing around with the lyric and timing can make it more interesting for the audience and I don't think it disrespects the composer whatsoever. And, sometimes it sounds great to do something with the tune first and have the vocal come in the middle.

If all the players know in advance what's going to happen, by one definition, that's not jazz.

[alpop]

I think you're setting the bar too high and gatekeeping. If a hobbyist can play the head to something like Satin Doll and a 2 chorus solo they're a jazz musician. Not on the level of Charlie Parker or Miles Davis, but who is? Everybody starts somewhere and the only threshold I can think of for jazz/not jazz musician are the songs themselves. The genre casts a wide net, and it's not all bebop, sheets of sound, or fusion shredding.

You don't need to transcribe Hendrix Star Spangled Banner to be a blues rocker, you just learn/write some songs and start.

I appreciate your viewpoint.

[Mick-7]

The 'play the melody for a half hour' seems to improve my melody retention.

But, does anyone have any other ideas for long term melody retention?

Learn to play what you hear - an aptitude you'll need to master to be a good improvisor - and this problem will go away. That is, you should be able to play the melody of a standard tune when you hear it. We're not talking about Donna Lee or someone's solo, just a simple melody in most cases.

Remembering the chords to a tune is usually a bigger challenge, and you can relate the melody to them, which is an argument for learning to play chord melodies.

I think you're setting the bar too high and gatekeeping. If a hobbyist can play the head to something like Satin Doll and a 2 chorus solo they're a jazz musician. Not on the level of Charlie Parker or Miles Davis, but who is? Everybody starts somewhere and the only threshold I can think of for jazz/not jazz musician are the songs themselves. The genre casts a wide net, and it's not all bebop, sheets of sound, or fusion shredding.

The caveat in your argument is the phrase I've bolded (that relates to my previous point), which I would rephrase as, "if you can improvise a 2 chorus solo." That is, if you're just playing memorized licks, I would not consider you a jazz musician, because to me, jazz is about improvisation.

[mr. beaumont]

Totally fine to be a mediocre jazz musician, ive been one for 20+ years. I just keep trying to get better.

Its just music, not rocket surgery.

[alpop]

Back to our regularly scheduled programming, my shot at Here's That Rainy Day melody.

[lawson-stone]

Totally fine to be a mediocre jazz musician, ive been one for 20+ years. I just keep trying to get better.

Its just music, not rocket surgery.

One of my little "motto" statements is "I'm not making history, just music."

[lawson-stone]

Learn to play what you hear - an aptitude you'll need to master to be a good improvisor - and this problem will go away. That is, you should be able to play the melody of a standard tune when you hear it. We're not talking about Donna Lee or someone's solo, just a simple melody in most cases.

Remembering the chords to a tune is usually a bigger challenge, and you can relate the melody to them, which is an argument for learning to play chord melodies.



The caveat in your argument is the phrase I've bolded (that relates to my previous point), which I would rephrase as, "if you can improvise a 2 chorus solo." That is, if you're just playing memorized licks, I would not consider you a jazz musician, because to me, jazz is about improvisation.

It is, though, important to remember that nobody cares at all what you, or I, or many others on this board consider a "jazz musician." Last I checked, most players out there are not waiting for your or my approval or certification. Jazz is a musical style; it is not a religion or creed. There is no board of review that certifies who is or isn't a jazz musician.

[Mick-7]

It is, though, important to remember that nobody cares at all what you, or I, or many others on this board consider a "jazz musician." Last I checked, most players out there are not waiting for your or my approval or certification. Jazz is a musical style; it is not a religion or creed. There is no board of review that certifies who is or isn't a jazz musician.

Well sure, but I don't think I said anything controversial, only that jazz is improvised music, versus, say, classical music where the goal is to be a good musical interpreter. I think that was Alpop's point?