Analyzing

[ragman1]

I don’t really know how to reply to this without just pointing to some fundamental misunderstanding about how this music works.

Pete, you go ahead. You did the college thing, I just picked up stuff along the way. I'll listen properly, no question.

On the point about the E7, if you’re not hearing that that’s not just a straight E7, then I’m not sure. Play E7 and it certainly “jives” with the chord there, but so does G7. The commonality there is their relationship to Abo7

Hearing it from where? The 1932 band played a straight E7. Other more modern players put in all kinds of things, I know that. If I was jazzing the tune up I wouldn't use a straight E7 either. Maybe a Bm11-Bb7b5, maybe a Bm7b5/E7, maybe the Abo, maybe a Dm9-G13, whatever. I'd have to play with it. How about Gb7b13 :-)

And your point on the melody … of course those chords don’t fit the melody, but we’re talking about improvising. Jazz musicians routinely improvise in ways and imply changes that don’t strictly suit the melody. It’s more rare that they don’t.

I know that. But then it becomes one of those tunes that alters the melody changes for the solo. Or something like that.

… try playing Ab F B E and see how it sounds over that big chord

I covered that. It's the Corcovado chord, but the context is different, of course.

[pamosmusic]

Ah well. I’m just a silly college boy.

Nevermind. You do you, Ragman. Wouldn’t have it any other way.

[wolflen]

other tune to rip apart..

Maiden Voyage

Blue in Green

these should push the post count into the thousands..

[ragman1]

Boo hoo, no one likes my explanation of the Stella thing

[ragman1]

Ah well. I’m just a silly college boy.

Not really.

You do you

Done. Here's an updated version using the Abo. Much better. (I still think Schwartz used the E7, though, because of that other band's version. Suits the period, sounds right).

I'd quite like to hear what you'd do with it, actually. I never thought you were boring. Too much to ask, I suppose?

[pamosmusic]

Not really.

How gracious of you.

I'd quite like to hear what you'd do with it, actually. I never thought you were boring. Too much to ask, I suppose?

Alas out of town sans guitar until Wednesday night. Otherwise of course.

[Mick-7]

Not at all, it's now old fashioned, it ought to be modernised. No question. All I wanted to do was find out where that dratted Bm/E7 came from in the middle of two Gm's. Because of the F#, you see.

As I said earlier, it would be a herald of the coming shift to D Major, which is where the progression goes after the next two bars of Dm. However, G7b9/Ab is played in the foxtrot version of the tune that Christian posted - or you could call it E11b9/G#.

And I have, it was always an E7. But it doesn't mean more contemporary players can't do dims or whatever they like. No probs at all.

But I still don't know how you're going to fit Abm7/Db7 in with the E-D melody :-)

Easy, they're the #9th and b9th of Db7(b9), but they're diatonic chord tones of E7(b9) & G7(b9). Choose your harmonic poison.

[Christian Miller]

The shift to D is just a tierce de Picardy to my ears, not a true modulation.


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[pamosmusic]

The shift to D is just a tierce de Picardy to my ears, not a true modulation.


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The cadence is even in minor

[grahambop]

Here’s the 1932 sheet music, have fun.

https://www.sheetmusicsinger.com/wp-...ether-1932.pdf

[pamosmusic]

Here’s the 1932 sheet music, have fun.

https://www.sheetmusicsinger.com/wp-...ether-1932.pdf

Well I’ll be … sure looks like a diminished chord to me …

G# B D F … with an E and G

[grahambop]

Yes the piano chord is G#dim (the Uke chord symbol says D dim, same thing effectively).

[ragman1]

I'm not just being stubborn, but really! There's a note on the score:



'The owner', of course, isn't Arthur Schwartz but HARMS Inc. who no doubt hired a pianist to arrange it for their publication. So it's their own arrangement and no-one's allowed to copy, re-arrange, or adapt it, not even poor Arthur who wrote it.

Sorry, but there's no evidence that this is how Arthur, bless him, performed it himself or intended it to be. Which doesn't mean he didn't use a diminished, of course.

[grahambop]

Presumably the sheet music arrangement is how the tune got played by everybody though (after the musical it came from expired after one run). As far as I know, that’s how these hits got disseminated in those days.

Of course the beboppers eventually two-fived it.

[jchinkley]

I will totally second this recommendation I have been doing the same and it really helps… I have to say though this is the “Getting Started” area and you folks are talking way over the head of us who are just getting our feet wet with this! I appreciate deeply the profound level of knowledge here but am not able to digest it in the way folks are throwing it around here … please slow down … we are just starting our learning of the jazz idiom it will take us a while to know what you are really sayng and value it as we will one day… it’s hard as a beginner even if you have experience in other types of music…

[pamosmusic]

I'm not just being stubborn, but really! There's a note on the score:



'The owner', of course, isn't Arthur Schwartz but HARMS Inc. who no doubt hired a pianist to arrange it for their publication. So it's their own arrangement and no-one's allowed to copy, re-arrange, or adapt it, not even poor Arthur who wrote it.

Sorry, but there's no evidence that this is how Arthur, bless him, performed it himself or intended it to be. Which doesn't mean he didn't use a diminished, of course.

Somebody get the hitch. Ragmans stuck in the mud again.

[ragman1]

Presumably the sheet music arrangement is how the tune got played by everybody though (after the musical it came from expired after one run). As far as I know, that’s how these hits got disseminated in those days.

Of course the beboppers eventually two-fived it.

Yes, I know, of course. It was 1932 and everybody got the piano music and played it... I'm sure that was more or less Arthur's way of doing it too, bearing in mind it was a song from a show.

I mean, this is the trouble with a lot of this stuff. Nice tune from a bygone era, and all that, but it's not 1932 any more and it's being played instrumentally by modern players in little combos. I mean, what do we do?

I come to it and see the RB version, hear lots of players like Sonny Rollins doing it, and there's this Bm/E7 stuck in there. So naturally I think weird but that's what it says so let's just get on with it. But here on the jazz site they're saying no, let's go back decades to pre-war times and play what they played. And some folks might just think zzzzz...

Unfortunately with this tune the dim chord does sound better than the Bm/E7. Or maybe it doesn't, depending.

Here you go, Arthur, suck on this!

[ragman1]

Somebody get the hitch. Ragmans stuck in the mud again.

Not at all. I pointed out examples of weird chords and got told to go back to 1932. Maybe I don't want to go back to 1932!

[grahambop]

The next bar (second bar on page 3 of the sheet music) is quite interesting too. The chord symbol says Bbm, but the piano spells out Bbmaj6 going to Bbm6, before resolving to F. Or it could be construed as Gm7 going to Gm7b5, then to F. (see the D to Db note inside the chord).

So a bit different from the Gm and C7 that’s usually played now.

[grahambop]

Not at all. I pointed out examples of weird chords and got told to go back to 1932. Maybe I don't want to go back to 1932!

The tune (probably) started out as Abdim (with E melody note), or as E7, however you want to look at it. (Much the same thing). Later the bebop guys two-fived it by putting a Bm in front of the E7. You can play it how you like. I kind of like it either way.

All seems fairly simple to me, I’m not sure why you are getting so worked up about it.

[Christian Miller]

You do have a similar sort of situation arising in the original changes to Georgia. F E7+ Bb6 C7, the E7 on ‘song’ and ‘clear’.

It’s rather nice, but no one plays it these days.

Most seem to think the original chord in Alone Together is Abo7. I don’t know, I’d need a squizz at the sheet music. Dick Hyman has G#o7 so maybe that’s the original spelling.


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[pamosmusic]

Not at all. I pointed out examples of weird chords and got told to go back to 1932. Maybe I don't want to go back to 1932!

No one told you this. The first time you said you didn’t want to go back to the original, I said:

Understanding where the changes probably came from isn’t going backwards … it’s giving yourself options.

You can do what you want my dude.

[pamosmusic]

The tune (probably) started out as Abdim (with E melody note), or as E7, however you want to look at it. (Much the same thing). Later the bebop guys two-fived it by putting a Bm in front of the E7. You can play it how you like. I kind of like it either way.

All seems fairly simple to me, I’m not sure why you are getting so worked up about it.

Yerp … and going “back to 1932” solves the whole problem of one person hearing G13 and another hearing E7 … diminished on the page kind of covers it all. What you hear probably depends on how it’s voiced in the orchestra.

And now you know you could probably use either dominant chord or the diminished in that spot and it’ll work just fine.

[pamosmusic]

I’d also like to point out that if you aren’t interested in where a chord comes from it’s probably best not to ask an Internet forum full of jazz dorks “where did that come from.”

I'd love to give an example or two. Off the top of my head, there's the gool old chestnut of Stella where it goes from A7 to Cm. Not even Bernstein can figure that one out.

Then there's Alone Together where it goes

Gm7 - Bm7/E7 - Gm7/C7 - F

Where did that come from?

Then there's Blue In Green where the last line is

E7 - Am - Dm

Is that Dm part of Am? Or part of Dm because after that it goes BbM7 - A7 - Dm?

Lots of fun :-)

[ragman1]

The next bar (second bar on page 3 of the sheet music) is quite interesting too. The chord symbol says Bbm, but the piano spells out Bbmaj6 going to Bbm6, before resolving to F. Or it could be construed as Gm7 going to Gm7b5, then to F. (see the D to Db note inside the chord).

So a bit different from the Gm and C7 that’s usually played now.

I saw that. Also F#m - Bm instead of DM7.