Analyzing

[ragman1]

The tune (probably) started out as Abdim (with E melody note), or as E7, however you want to look at it. (Much the same thing). Later the bebop guys two-fived it by putting a Bm in front of the E7. You can play it how you like. I kind of like it either way.

All seems fairly simple to me, I’m not sure why you are getting so worked up about it.

I'm not worked up at all, I'm just following the discussion. But I chose the Bm7/E7 in the middle of a strictly D minor tune as an example of strange chord inserts from an analytical perspective. It wasn't the E7 so much as the sudden introduction of the F# note (the Abo doesn't have it). And it went from there.

[ragman1]

I’d also like to point out that if you aren’t interested in where a chord comes from it’s probably best not to ask an Internet forum full of jazz dorks “where did that come from.”

Your post is contradictory. I asked 'Where did that come from?' and now you say I'm not interested where it came from! Of course I'm interested, that's why we're discussing it.

Apparently it came from a bebop sub for a dim chord. Okay :-)

[ragman1]

And still no one's interested in my Stella thing. As I said, even Bernstein was asking what on earth the connection between A7 and Cm was.

I said:

Bbo - F7 (basically)

became

Em7b5/A7b9 - Cm7/F7

So it's not the problem of A7 to Cm, they're additions, it's Em7b5 (leading chord) to F (played as F7). Which is perfectly legit.

[Christian Miller]

I'm not worked up at all, I'm just following the discussion. But I chose the Bm7/E7 in the middle of a strictly D minor tune as an example of strange chord inserts from an analytical perspective. It wasn't the E7 so much as the sudden introduction of the F# note (the Abo doesn't have it). And it went from there.

I would say that's a good and interesting question. Sorry if I lost it in a morass of comments.

Again, I think a squizz at the sheet music would be interesting. There's only so much you can get from chord symbols. Presumably there is no F# in the piano score, but I don't know.

That said, I don't tend to include the F# when I play a CM of the tune, and I don't really miss it that much? And yet it doesn't sound right to play a Bm7b5 there. Maybe it's just what my ears are used to.

[ragman1]

I would say that's a good and interesting question. Sorry if I lost it in a morass of comments.

Again, I think a squizz at the sheet music would be interesting.

They've done that, the piano score from 1932.

I think the F# in the harmony adds something to the song - the modal brightening there.

Agreed. I did say more than once I'd no objection to using it.

[Christian Miller]

Ah, Graham posted it. But of course.

[Christian Miller]

Oh man, I love the original harmonies, that D pedal at the start makes it sound like the Bach Chaconne. And that Am7b5/Eb is a nice detail too. The 'Schumann chord' (or Rachmaninoff chord) super Romantic and can be found in loads of tunes including Stella and the Days of Wine and Roses (as well as Life on Mars and of course All by Myself/Rach 2), but often subbed out in jazz tunes, because we are afraid to have feelings.

But yeah G#o7. No idea why it's a Bm7 and not a Bm7b5 in modern charts.

[ragman1]

But yeah G#o7. No idea why it's a Bm7 and not a Bm7b5 in modern charts.

Maybe they thought the E melody would clash with the F nat. Whereas E and F# is more interesting :-)

[Christian Miller]

Maybe they thought the E melody would clash with the F nat. Whereas E and F# is more interesting :-)

Well we're back to Stella then aren't we? Sauce for the goose etc.

Besides which that note is a common addition to a dim chord as a passing dissonance. It crops up in the last few bars of All the Things, and I could cite a squillion other examples. I mean it is dissonant, that's kind of the point, it resolves late in the bar to an E. Those sorts of long leaning dissonances are common in the music of the era, filtering down from the concert hall into the popular song (again, the verse of All By Myself lol, straight lift from Rachmaninoff). Stella is basically chock full of examples of that sort of thing.

Which is why it's important not to look at these song book harmonies too much through the jazz musician lens. We today would interpret the E on an G#o7 as some sort of extended harmony, but that's not how musicians of the pre war era tended to view things, they were coming out of post romantic harmony with a bit of blues and pentatonic influence, not jazz chord scale theory.

[ragman1]

They don't make them like this any more because they never made them like this in the first place

[ragman1]

We today would interpret the E on an G#o7 as some sort of extended harmony, but that's not how musicians of the pre war era tended to view things, they were coming out of post romantic harmony with a bit of blues and pentatonic influence, not jazz chord scale theory.

But you have that in Corcovado:

Am6 - 4x345x - Gm7/F#7b5 - F6

(It's really D7 - G7 - Gm/C7 - F)

[Christian Miller]

But you have that in Corcovado:

Am6 - 4x345x - Gm7/F#7b5 - F6

(It's really D7 - G7 - Gm/C7 - F)

Yes good example. Also Basin Street Blues, Tea for Two. If you make chord melody arrangements you are going to find that guy cropping up again and again.

The top note usually resolves down a step, either on the same chord, or sometimes the next one.

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[pamosmusic]

And still no one's interested in my Stella thing. As I said, even Bernstein was asking what on earth the connection between A7 and Cm was.

you’re killing me, ragman… literally the first reply I made to your first post.

And for whatever this is worth ... probably not much ... Em7(b5) to A7 is a diminished sub and often traded in and out with the ii-V of the relative major Gm7 to C7. So with those you get Gm7 C7, Cm7 F7, Fm7 Bb7, Eb ... which is not weird at all. It's just shades of that diminished chord that starts the tune in the old movie version (and I'm fairly certain Peter Bernstein knows this).

That Bm7 to E7 in Alone Together is lovely. It takes a detour back through the regular ii-V but is often a post-bebop era sub for the common tone diminished, in this case Fdim7.

Blue in Green is cyclical and has some unusual harmony. Bounces back and forth between an Am7 and Dm7 tonal center, so the ambiguity is the point.

And now, we can only cross our fingers and hope that I've derailed the thread into a debate about whether or not I'm right.

You were so interested in the answer that you replied …

Oh god, there's always someone who needs to prove themselves. Anyway, I'm glad you thought my examples worthy of some brainpower.

If you’re following it’s back to those diminished chords again.

(I'll also point out that in that masterclass video you posted, Pete does start by saying "what do these chords have to do with one another" but it's a rhetorical device and he proceeds to speak for five minutes about the connection between them based on the Bbdim7 chord)

[pamosmusic]

Your post is contradictory. I asked 'Where did that come from?' and now you say I'm not interested where it came from! Of course I'm interested, that's why we're discussing it.

Apparently it came from a bebop sub for a dim chord. Okay :-)

…

Not at all. I pointed out examples of weird chords and got told to go back to 1932. Maybe I don't want to go back to 1932!

We’re getting to a point where one could carry on an entire argument with both sides represented in quotes from your posts.

[grahambop]

Oh man, I love the original harmonies, that D pedal at the start makes it sound like the Bach Chaconne. And that Am7b5/Eb is a nice detail too. The 'Schumann chord' (or Rachmaninoff chord) super Romantic and can be found in loads of tunes including Stella and the Days of Wine and Roses (as well as Life on Mars and of course All by Myself/Rach 2), but often subbed out in jazz tunes, because we are afraid to have feelings.

But yeah G#o7. No idea why it's a Bm7 and not a Bm7b5 in modern charts.

I thought you’d like it, it’s a nice arrangement isn’t it.

Can see why Peter Bernstein likes to check out the original song sheets for ideas.

[Christian Miller]

I thought you’d like it, it’s a nice arrangement isn’t it.

Can see why Peter Bernstein likes to check out the original song sheets for ideas.

Yeah it’s almost like those guys were really good songwriters or smth


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[ragman1]

literally the first reply I made to your first post.

I saw it, but I said there's always someone who needs to prove themselves because I was only giving examples, I wasn't asking for the answer to puzzles. 'Where did that come from?' was a rhetorical question, not a literal one.

However, I did go back and read your answer. I agree, that's a reasonable analysis. But all these answers, including mine, are rarely conclusive. To get the real skinny you'd have to ask the person who first made the subs. And they'd have to remember what they did and explain it. If they're not dead by now :-)

(I'll also point out that in that masterclass video you posted, Pete does start by saying "what do these chords have to do with one another" but it's a rhetorical device and he proceeds to speak for five minutes about the connection between them based on the Bbdim7 chord)

I'll tell you. I included the Bernstein vid from a long ago memory, I didn't post it in the first one. I remembered him asking the question but at that time I didn't spend time following his argument, mainly because the sound quality was so bad and I wasn't trying to solve anything.

I've had another look now. I could take it to pieces fairly easily. First, we know the original chord was Bbo. That's old hat. But then he says it really stands for a Dbo, so he's moved it. I moved it too, of course, but to Eo (Em7b5/A7b9) which is the version that has superseded the original for a long time now.

Then he says 'think of something that goes from Bbo to Cm'. But he's not staying with Db or E dim, he's gone back to Bbo again. And he's looking a bit puzzled too, check it out. Interestingly, the vid fades out and back in at that point.

Then he goes back to Dbo again and tries to connect it to Cm with a scale. But then he says he's going from C#o to Cm. But he says 'I'm not trying to say how has it happened that A7 goes to Cm. We know that it happens, I'm just trying to get you to hear how it happens. What is the connection?' Then he plays C#o-Cm, which sounds okay as a chromatic shift.

And that's his answer, that Bbo = Db/C#o to Cm because it's a half-step resolution. But, of course, he's not playing C#o or Bbo, nor does the tune play one either any more, it plays Em7b5 - A7b9.

I stopped after that. In fact, the first time I watched it a long time ago, I turned off a lot earlier. So apparently we've now got three different solutions, yours, mine and now Bernstein's. But who cares? Does it really matter? Like I said on the video, I just play the damn chords. Them's the chords, that's what I play.

Anyway, that's the reason I rarely analyse, it leads down rabbit holes like this. When all you've got to do is play what's there. And, if you know something about it, have all kinds of fun with it.

Have I answered it? Feel free to quote the whole thing as your reply!

[Christian Miller]

I think one thing we may draw from all this is that understanding the why of music is not that important. We can leave some questions to the musicologists.

The main thing is to know that the Em7b5 A7 goes to Cm7 F7 (or the Bob goes to Cm7 or whatever) and practice playing the song, comping the chords and soloing over the changes. Practice both the obvious choices and those funny headscratching corners that tunes often have.

Pete can play Stella pretty good.

[pamosmusic]

I think one thing we may draw from all this is that understanding the why of music is not that important.

Pete can play Stella pretty good.

Agreed.

But also in that video … literally four seconds after he says “where does that chord come from” … he clearly explains the why.

I liked the part where he says “that diminished chord is like a joint.”

Barry Harris’s obsession with the diminished makes sense. It can take you sooooooo many interesting and beautiful places.

[Christian Miller]

Agreed.

But also in that video … literally four seconds after he says “where does that chord come from” … he clearly explains the why.

I liked the part where he says “that diminished chord is like a joint.”

Barry Harris’s obsession with the diminished makes sense. It can take you sooooooo many interesting and beautiful places.

YMMV with what is a satisfactory explanation in music theory anyway. TBH I think many times people just say that stuff to reassure themselves and others that it all makes sense on some level haha.

[pamosmusic]

Anyway, that's the reason I rarely analyse, it leads down rabbit holes like this. When all you've got to do is play what's there.

Play what’s where?

[bediles]

Play what’s where?

I hope this is fun for you

[pamosmusic]

I hope this is fun for you

Oh buddy, it is.

[pamosmusic]

YMMV with what is a satisfactory explanation in music theory anyway. TBH I think many times people just say that stuff to reassure themselves and others that it all makes sense on some level haha.

Yeah I mean to me, this stuff started making more sense when I started teaching kids more.

Sound. Sight. Explanation.

So you immerse them in the way a thing sounds, show them what it looks like later, and only when they’re doing the thing confidently do you tell them the theory or abstract “why” of it. If even then.

And that really clicked a lot of the jazz theory into place.

You play forty tunes and notice that there are all these spots that really sound the same and when you do some simple voiceleading or upper structure things, you realize they overlap a lot. And then you realize they’re all turnarounds (or cadences or whatever). So you can kind of change some of those pieces in and out and they still work. And only then you try and decode some through line so you can find them later, expand on them, imply them in different situations etc.

[pauln]

Might be a good idea to put parentheses around double digit numbers

My solution for the A7 is to disguise it as three passing kinds of "G" chords
G13/F | GM7sus2b5 | GbM7b5

Let the melody be your guide?
x x x x 11 x
9 x 8 9 10 x
x 8 9 9 8 x
x 10 11 11 10 x
x 9 10 10 11 x
x x 8 8 6 x
x x 7 8 6 x...