Analyzing

[ragman1]

So if it's a bebop sub why now go backwards to Abo?

[pamosmusic]

So if it's a bebop sub why now go backwards to Abo?

Well this is the crux of the whole thread, right?

Understanding where the changes probably came from isn’t going backwards … it’s giving yourself options.

For a long time playing this I just played a rapid fire ii-V there, but knowing it has a purpose gives me more ideas. That it used to be Ab dim means I can probably play Abdim in that bar … or Bm E7, or Abm Db7, or Dm G7, or maybe even that Fm Bb7.

If I know WHY that Abdim is there then I can try out other “motion to Gm” things … your Ab7 … D7 … F#dim.

If I know that’s also a common way of embellishing a tonic then I can try “motion to F” things … C7 through the whole passage, Gb7 through the whole passage, Fdim through the whole passage.

Or heck … I’ve been on a Jim Hall bender lately … maybe I’ll try skipping all the changes and just play F stuff through all three of those measures

Theory should become practice as quickly as possible. Folks who say “you’re over thinking” are usually just folks who haven’t figured out quite how to make the brain work relevant to the ear and instrument work yet

EDIT: not saying you are complaining about over thinking it. Just in general … it’s overthinking but only if you don’t play the stuff you’re thinking about

[Christian Miller]

Folks who say “you’re over thinking” are usually just folks who haven’t figured out quite how to make the brain work relevant to the ear and instrument work yet

Yeah it's nothing to do with thinking, that's the frustrating thing. Jimmy 'maddest at theory' Bruno knows all this stuff because knows hundreds and hundreds of tunes.

The number of tunes with that little turnaround thing is huge. Someone can say bIII dim turnaround and I'll know what they mean. Knowing that's where that funny II V in Alone Together comes from helps tie it in with those tunes and suggests a cool sub I can use elsewhere.

It's part of the Lore.

On the other hand if you don't know any tunes and don't pay standards gigs, you might never learn that stuff and it might seem like theory because someone is talking about it on a forum and you end up having meaningless debates with people who don't really get it because they have no pressing need to, really. But it's practical info for people who play standards gigs.

[Christian Miller]

An early recording for reference. I usually start with a very straight, square version like this so I can learn the lay of the land.

[ragman1]

it’s giving yourself options.

Right, options. Thanks, got it!

[AllanAllen]

An early recording for reference. I usually start with a very straight, square version like this so I can learn the lay of the land.

I just checked my join date. It's been nearly 5 years since I came to this forum, and I FINALLY get why people say to go back to the original recordings.

[Mick-7]

An early recording for reference. I usually start with a very straight, square version like this so I can learn the lay of the land.

Measure #9 sounds like: G13/Ab > G7b9/G > C6 > C7 > Fmaj.7, etc.

I FINALLY get why people say to go back to the original recordings.

So you can learn to play fox trots properly?

[pamosmusic]

Measure #9 sounds like: G13/Ab > G7b9/G > C6 > C7 > Fmaj.7, etc.

G13/Ab

Ab -- B D F G

That, my friend, is an Ab dim chord. With a major 7 (the E) ... which is common in that function and quite hip.

Literally the Corcovado chord.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

An early recording for reference. I usually start with a very straight, square version like this so I can learn the lay of the land.

The shellac collection of the Internet Archive is also a treasure trove for this.

[Mick-7]

G13/Ab

Ab -- B D F G

That, my friend, is an Ab dim chord. With a major 7 (the E) ... which is common in that function and quite hip.

Yes but they're including the 9th (A) in the 13th chord, so you get the lovely dissonance between the Ab bass and A alto notes.

[pamosmusic]

Yes but they're including the 9th (A) in the 13th chord, so you get the lovely dissonance between the Ab bass and A alto notes.

Orchestras are always hipper with their harmony.

[ragman1]

it’s giving yourself options.

Just done this. You can tell me what you think of it if you like. I think it was the sudden inclusion of the F# (Bm7) in the midst of an F tonality that did it. So...

[pamosmusic]

Just done this. You can tell me what you think of it if you like. I think it was the sudden inclusion of the F# (Bm7) in the midst of an F tonality that did it. So...

Well theory is not rules. It all comes back to practice.

Youre playing really slow, so it always takes more effort to be convincing at a slow tempo.

Voice-leading also matters. Meaning that the problem isn’t the F# (assuming there’s a problem) — it’s the “sudden” part.

And of course vocabulary forgives all sins. If the melodic idea is cool, it doesn’t matter all that much how it relates to the chords under.

[AllanAllen]

Well theory is not rules. It all comes back to practice.

Youre playing really slow, so it always takes more effort to be convincing at a slow tempo.

Voice-leading also matters. Meaning that the problem isn’t the F# (assuming there’s a problem) — it’s the “sudden” part.

And of course vocabulary forgives all sins. If the melodic idea is cool, it doesn’t matter all that much how it relates to the chords under.

Stone cold

[pamosmusic]

Stone cold

Wasn't meant to be

[Christian Miller]

The 7 of the key on biiio7 is worth putting a pin in - really common in fact. Also ahem, Stella.

Most charts would notate just the dim 7 chord in the chord symbols


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ragman1]

Youre playing really slow

Do you think so? I don't find that particularly slow. It could be an age thing but, to me, that just rolls along nicely and is enjoyable to play. I think it was a bit faster than, say, the Chet Atkins version (just had a look). But there are definitely some speedy versions around.

Voice-leading also matters. Meaning that the problem isn’t the F# (assuming there’s a problem) — it’s the “sudden” part.

And of course vocabulary forgives all sins. If the melodic idea is cool, it doesn’t matter all that much how it relates to the chords under.

You should have been a politician, I'm having to read between the lines :-)

To be honest, I just play it the way I feel it at the time. I don't do bebop so that's not going to be there but I think it all joins up okay...

(I did put in some G mel m because it's got an F# in it. That's about it, I think).

[pamosmusic]

Do you think so? I don't find that particularly slow. It could be an age thing but, to me, that just rolls along nicely and is enjoyable to play. I think it was a bit faster than, say, the Chet Atkins version (just had a look). But there are definitely some speedy versions around.

I don’t mean like “you’re playing the tune too slow.” Totally fine tempo. I just mean it’s easier to sneak in dissonances when the tempo is bright. You’re playing at a slower tempo so those dissonances are going to pop … what you might not like at this tempo, might be easier to get away with forty clicks faster.

You should have been a politician,

A truly terrible idea.

To be honest, I just play it the way I feel it at the time. I don't do bebop so that's not going to be there but I think it all joins up okay...

No need to play bebop. But let’s use Jim Hall … there’s a great spot where he plays a B natural over a C7 chord in Tangerine, and it’s literally the only note in the measure. It’s not a bebop lick, but it works because of how confident the attack is and how the placement swings. Maybe I should’ve said rhythm forgives all your harmonic sins.

[ragman1]

I don’t mean like “you’re playing the tune too slow.” Totally fine tempo. I just mean it’s easier to sneak in dissonances when the tempo is bright. You’re playing at a slower tempo so those dissonances are going to pop … what you might not like at this tempo, might be easier to get away with forty clicks faster.

You're saying that kind of style would sound better done faster. You're probably right.

A truly terrible idea.

Absolutely.

No need to play bebop. But let’s use Jim Hall … there’s a great spot where he plays a B natural over a C7 chord in Tangerine, and it’s literally the only note in the measure. It’s not a bebop lick, but it works because of how confident the attack is and how the placement swings. Maybe I should’ve said rhythm forgives all your harmonic sins.

Hang on...

looks for Jim Hall Tangerine

Got it, at about 1.06. He's using B over C7 chromatically to get to the F. Well, that's okay, isn't it, especially at that speed.

[pamosmusic]

You're saying that kind of style would sound better done faster. You're probably right.

Well … no not really. Dissonance sounds wonderful at whatever tempo. You just have to work harder, play a more compelling idea, play more confident rhythm when you’re hanging there for longer.

Hang on...

looks for Jim Hall Tangerine

Got it, at about 1.06. He's using B over C7 chromatically to get to the F. Well, that's okay, isn't it, especially at that speed.

Context and confidence, baby

[ragman1]

First, I just checked back on other versions I've done over the years. I agree, this one was noticeably slower than the others. Don't know why, just seemed okay at the time :-)

Context and confidence, baby

Oh, you wouldn't believe the trash I've pumped out over the years. Totally shameless. You haven't heard my out version of Summertime. Insane

[ragman1]

It's Saturday so you're probably off doing weekend stuff. But I'm still fairly intrigued by this Bm7/E7 thing. I just listened to the Rollins/Kessell version. They do Bm11/E7.

There's this idea of going back to the original chords. I'm not sure this is as significant as it's made out because things evolve and move on.

If you think of it, there really isn't much connection between Abo (if that really was the original Schwartz chord) and Bm7/E7 except Abo might look like an E7b9/G#.

That's possible and works but actually a straight E7/G# flows better into Gm than E7b9 because the F messes it up. And you can play F# or nat F over it as you wish.

When I asked Peter why he thought the Bm7/E7 was there he could only say maybe because it's 'cool' and a lot of jazzers were using it so it got put in the Real Book... which, as we know, is untrustworthy anyway. So!

But then he said that knowing the original chord (and I'm not happy that we actually do know what it was) gave us other options.

I'm not very happy with that either because we've got the lead sheet, we can read the melody line, and we can see the Gm7/C7 into F. Musically that's not a great puzzle. We can very easily make our own subs in that bar.

Incidentally, that Gm hasn't the same function as the two-bar Gm before it which is the end of a definite ii-V-i modulation into Gm. So we can regard the 'Bm/E7' bar as the first chord of the run-down into F, quite distinct from the temporary G minor key before it.

But I have to take issue with Peter on his subs. Suggestions like Fm/Bb7 and Abm/Db7 would simply contradict the E - D melody.

Christian brought up the significance of the bIII dim sub. Quite right, a good sub to know, but it doesn't necessarily fit every tune.

But Christian did post a 1932 version of the tune. Very nice (I'd already heard it but overlooked its importance). All the chords are very clear and not at all complex.

If there was one version that probably comes nearest to being original, I'd say it was that one. It's 1932 and from the show.

As far as I can make out it goes something like this. Incidentally, all they do is play the E7, no frills, because the E melody needs to be strong at that point.

But it doesn't go to an ordinary Gm, it's got the C in it so that's either Gm11 or C7sus to F. And the next chord isn't F7, it's F aug to F6 (you can hear the internal line C-C#-D), which makes much more sense:

Dm - Dbo - Dm - A7
Dm - D7b9 - Gm/D7 - Gm
E7 - Gm11 - F/F+ - F6/A7
DM7 - % (B-Bb-A)

Am7b5 - D7b9 - Gm - % (D-E-F#)
Gm7b5 - C7b9 - F - Em7b5/A7

Dm - Dbo - Dm - A7
Dm - Bb7/A7 - Dm - (D maj final).

So I'd say that E7 was the original chord. It was jazzers who added the ii (Bm7) which introduced the F# and then everybody did it. But I suppose the Bm could be played as Bm11, that would do it.

So I'd say nothing to do with Abo. Not that it doesn't work, but then so do many other possible subs.

[pamosmusic]

Ragman … I both really like the changes you came up with, and also think you’re misunderstanding some aspects of the conversation going on.

[ragman1]

Ragman … I both really like the changes you came up with, and also think you’re misunderstanding some aspects of the conversation going on.

Not at all, it's now old fashioned, it ought to be modernised. No question. All I wanted to do was find out where that dratted Bm/E7 came from in the middle of two Gm's. Because of the F#, you see.

And I have, it was always an E7. But it doesn't mean more contemporary players can't do dims or whatever they like. No probs at all.

(But I still don't know how you're going to fit Abm7/Db7 in with the E-D melody :-)))

[pamosmusic]

Not at all, it's now old fashioned, it ought to be modernised. No question. All I wanted to do was find out where that dratted Bm/E7 came from in the middle of two Gm's. Because of the F#, you see.

And I have, it was always an E7. But it doesn't mean more contemporary players can't do dims or whatever they like. No probs at all.

(But I still don't know how you're going to fit Abm7/Db7 in with the E-D melody :-)))

I don’t really know how to reply to this without just pointing to some fundamental misunderstanding about how this music works.

On the point about the E7, if you’re not hearing that that’s not just a straight E7, then I’m not sure. Play E7 and it certainly “jives” with the chord there, but so does G7. The commonality there is their relationship to Abo7 … try playing Ab F B E and see how it sounds over that big chord.

And your point on the melody … of course those chords don’t fit the melody, but we’re talking about improvising. Jazz musicians routinely improvise in ways and imply changes that don’t strictly suit the melody. It’s more rare that they don’t.