Analyzing

[Mick-7]

Part in question was prior to that ...

It's the three bars before the ii-V to D major. And that Bm and E7 comes between two measures in F. So ragman was asking how it relates in that context.

I realize that. Like I said, it goes from Dm to DMaj: VIm/II7 in D Major, back to Dm (F Major) for two bars, and then to D Major again.

No reason to think substitutes there, it changes keys but with a temporary nod (2 bars) to the original key.

[pamosmusic]

I realize that. Like I said, it goes from Dm to DMaj: VIm/II7 in D Major, back to Dm (F Major) for two bars, and then to D Major again.

No reason to think substitutes there, it changes keys but with a temporary nod (2 bars) to the original key.

You're just talking silly right now.

The whole thing is in Dm/F until the final cadence, where in lands in D major. So you could consider that Bm-E7 a modulation to A, or a modulation to D that ends on the ii chord ... neither of which are terribly compelling to me ... or you could just figure that it probably has something to do with the cadence it's a part of.

The other thing is that, there are versions of the tune where that Bm-E7 ii-V isn't there. Orchestral versions, in particular where they tend to revel in the inner voice movement a little more than we jazzers do ... but Ella's version has the diminished moving down a half step to the ii-V. So does (I think) Paul Desmond and Jim Hall's, at least on the melody.

(Ella's is in Gm so you hear a Db there, going down to Cm F7 Bb etc .... Paul's is in Cm, so the chord in question is Gbdim)

You can hear Ella's best because of that trombone figure.

[Bobby Timmons]

[Christian Miller]

I’ve got a version by Scott Hamilton where they use that diminished chord, sounds good.

Yeah it’s an old school thing so no surprise. I think they tended to sub out dim chords a fair bit in the modern jazz era.


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[Christian Miller]

Talking about two different tunes there, cat.

Christian was talking about Alone Together. I had called the Bm E7 an Fdim and Christian called it Abdim. Which of course are the same pitches but the name should reflect the function, and Christian’s answer is probably better.

Iirc it’s Abo7 in the Dick Hyman book


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[Christian Miller]

Some other tunes with the bIIIdim chord in

Pennies from heaven
I can’t give you anything but love
ATTYA
Tea for Two
Night and Day
Embraceable You
Basin Street Blues
Darn that Dream (orignal changes)
How insensitive
Corcovado


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[pamosmusic]

An experiment.

If you take the ii-V and move up and down m3s, do you end up with other common ii V movements? If so, it’s probably a beboppification of a diminished chord

In this case

Bm E7 Gm C7 F becomes

Fm Bb7 Gm C7 F … maybe not useful.

or

Dm7 G7 Gm7 C7 F … super common

Abm7 Db7 Gm7 C7 F … also common … the ole Stablemates ii V

[Bobby Timmons]

An experiment.

If you take the ii-V and move up and down m3s, do you end up with other common ii V movements? If so, it’s probably a beboppification of a diminished chord.

We were literally doing this today in Chris Parks class. Only with the 5 chord, but a student pointed out that you can do it on the 2 also. And I suppose the 1 too?

Chris pointed out that you can also move the minor 6th on the 5th on the dominant in minor 3rds. My mind was blown.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Some other tunes with the bIIIdim chord in

Pennies from heaven
I can’t give you anything but love
ATTYA
Tea for Two
Night and Day
Embraceable You
Basin Street Blues
Darn that Dream (orignal changes)
How insensitive
Corcovado


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Till There Was You
Out Of Nowhere

... have the "diminished from above" (Barry Harris; to discern it from the "diminished from below" a.k.a. "leading tone diminished" in the classical world) as well. The diminished from above is simply a chromatic passing chord from the I6 to the IIm7 (= IV6).

One thing that is totally neglected by most regarding Barry's teaching is what happens when you chromatically move up or down one or two notes of diminished chords.

[pamosmusic]

We were literally doing this today in Chris Parks class. Only with the 5 chord, but a student pointed out that you can do it on the 2 also. And I suppose the 1 too?

Chris pointed out that you can also move the minor 6th on the 5th on the dominant in minor 3rds. My mind was blown.

Yeah. This might not quite fall in the BH stuff … he’s maybe more inclined to leave that diminished chord there than to use it to generate those ii-Vs, but others would know more about that than me?

But yeah … cycling that V chord through the minor thirds is a game changer. My understanding of Barry’s stuff is that the ii-chord is just an extension of the V so if you’re moving the V and playing the ii, you can move the ii along with it. And you see that a lot … especially with the back door V chord. The ii comes along for the ride with it a lot.

Not sure the moving around of the I was part of Barry’s thing, but Jack Zucker’s dodecaphonics goes there. It’s using some of those diminished subbing ideas but coming at it more from a sort of early-middle Coltrane angle so the gloves come off and he goes for some really cool out sounds.

jack zucker - Dodecaphonics Part II

[AllanAllen]

Some other tunes with the bIIIdim chord in

Pennies from heaven
I can’t give you anything but love
ATTYA
Tea for Two
Night and Day
Embraceable You
Basin Street Blues
Darn that Dream (orignal changes)
How insensitive
Corcovado


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This is going over my head. What part of ATTYA is the biiidim?

[pamosmusic]

This is going over my head. What part of ATTYA is the biiidim?

Bar 32 … Bdim going down to Bbm for the final ii V

Notated as a sharp two because nobody wants to see a Cb on a lead sheet.

[AllanAllen]

Bar 32 … Bdim going down to Bbm for the final ii V

Notated as a sharp two because nobody wants to see a Cb on a lead sheet.

Oh, I named that “down the line” thanks I’ll read over this again. It’s helpful to have the right terms on stage. Instead of whatever I made up.

[Mick-7]

You're just talking silly right now.

The whole thing is in Dm/F until the final cadence, where in lands in D major. So you could consider that Bm-E7 a modulation to A, or a modulation to D that ends on the ii chord ... neither of which are terribly compelling to me ... or you could just figure that it probably has something to do with the cadence it's a part of.

The other thing is that, there are versions of the tune where that Bm-E7 ii-V isn't there. Orchestral versions, in particular where they tend to revel in the inner voice movement a little more than we jazzers do ... but Ella's version has the diminished moving down a half step to the ii-V. So does (I think) Paul Desmond and Jim Hall's, at least on the melody.

(Ella's is in Gm so you hear a Db there, going down to Cm F7 Bb etc .... Paul's is in Cm, so the chord in question is Gbdim)

You can hear Ella's best because of that trombone figure.

Silliness is my specialty.... I just find it easier to view the last several measures of the A section as being in D Major - the version I know of the tune anyway. So simplified it would be: Bm7-E7/ A7b9 / Am7 (correction: Dm7)/ E7 -A7 / DM7.

[pamosmusic]

Silliness is my specialty.... I just find it easier to view the last several measures of the A section as being in D Major - the version I know of the tune anyway. So simplified it would be: Bm7-E7/ A7b9 / Am7 / E7 -A7 / DM7.

Color me skeptical on this one, Mick.

I suppose it might be easier to view it that way, though I’m not sure how. That minor key resolves parallel major isnt uncommon either (You and the Night and the Music, for example) and would seem to be the more straightforward way of looking at it. Also yours would be kind of a peculiar chord progression in D major either way (v minor?) … also that tends to be a Bb in the ii V to D … etc etc.

But the operative thing is that, when my way of looking at a tune starts to diverge from the way I’m hearing that tune on recordings, I figure I made a wrong turn somewhere.

[Mick-7]

Color me skeptical on this one, Mick.

I suppose it might be easier to view it that way, though I’m not sure how. That minor key resolves parallel major isnt uncommon either (You and the Night and the Music, for example) and would seem to be the more straightforward way of looking at it.

But the operative thing is that, when my way of looking at a tune starts to diverge from the way I’m hearing that tune on recordings, I figure I made a wrong turn somewhere.

Frankly, this tune has not been in my repertoire but if it were, I'd listen to various recordings of it and perhaps change my approach. The only lead sheet I have of it is in the Colorado Fake Book.

What are the classic renditions of it, or your favorites? (You mentioned Ella and Desmond)

[pamosmusic]

Frankly, this tune has not been in my repertoire but if it were, I'd listen to various recordings of it and perhaps change my approach. The only lead sheet I have of it is in the Colorado Fake Book.

What are the classic renditions of it, or your favorites? (You mentioned Ella and Desmond)

I mean ... the quintessential:

(usually Bm E7 in that one, if I recall)

And the Sonny Rollins one w/ Barney Kessel smokes too.

[AllanAllen]

My favorite

[pamosmusic]

oohhhhhh I forgot about that one. What an incredible album.

[ragman1]

I'd still like to know what possessed Schwartz to put Bm/E7 in the middle of a D minor tune and between two G minors. It does look weird, let's face it.

Not that Abo isn't the smoother option.

(I was just in the kitchen and thought that Corcovado has that chord, an Abo with a melody E on top (4x345x). But the context there is quite different, of course - Am6 - Abo - Gm7/C7 - F6)

[GuyBoden]

What you hear is more important than what you know.

[ragman1]

Quite so.

There's yet another way to look at this. The two preceding bars are Gm and Gm7 which imply a bass line G - F. So the next chord could be an Em7b5, right? Bit of a cliche but it fits with the melody.

By the way, I suppose all this is to avoid playing Bm7/E7. I have to say I've never actually minded playing it. I only thought of it as an example of an odd progression for the other post.

[pamosmusic]

I'd still like to know what possessed Schwartz to put Bm/E7 in the middle of a D minor tune and between two G minors. It does look weird, let's face it.
)

What I’ve been saying is that he almost certainly didn’t. He probably wrote the Abdim7 …. Those unusual ii-Vs are usually subs added in by the jazzers later.

[ragman1]

Okay. If they're good jazzers why the oddity? I mean, it made it to the Real Book!

[pamosmusic]

Okay. If they're good jazzers why the oddity? I mean, it made it to the Real Book!

Because it’s cool? And probably in the real book because the most common change there …. among jazzers. At least of the era that Real Book editors would be interested in.

But there have been 125,987 threads about the Real Book … we know that at its very best it’s giving us an accurate but just a representative version of the tune. Not a definitive one.

When you include But Not For Me, is it the original? Ahmad Jamal’s? With the bassline? John Coltrane’s?