Analyzing

[ragman1]

The subject of analysis is quite complex. I'm not going to answer the OP directly because it was quite obvious from the start that, if he'll forgive me, he wouldn't understand the answer. He needs to go back to basics and learn the essential facts and their terms.

But he did ask one pertinent question which was 'Why am I analysing at all'?

That's the point. Personally, I don't do an awful lot of analysing simply because it isn't necessary. There's not a lot of point in being able to identify the function of the chords, say, in one key. A glance at the lead sheet should be enough. The same thing applies even when there are modulations into different keys.

Analysis comes into its own when one comes across a chord or section that doesn't seem to fit into a basic format. Then a good knowledge of musical structure is necessary.

What often happens, especially with tricky examples, is that the so-called analysis becomes mere opinion. Different people will have different views. So, as I say, the subject of analysis can be troublesome; there's not always a straightforward answer.

To answer the OP's question, one might need to analyse a piece because it aids in determining how one should improvise over it. It points to what notes it needs, which doesn't necessarily mean scales, to bring out the sound that's required to make it sound right and flow.

I think that's the essential reason for analysis, not just to identify the symbolic name/function of a particular chord or chords. Anyone who knows the basics can do that. But on a proper level it would include taking into account the melody and whether the piece is tonal or modal, and so on, all of which needs a lot of knowledge and experience.

[ragman1]

I'd love to give an example or two. Off the top of my head, there's the gool old chestnut of Stella where it goes from A7 to Cm. Not even Bernstein can figure that one out.

Then there's Alone Together where it goes

Gm7 - Bm7/E7 - Gm7/C7 - F

Where did that come from?

Then there's Blue In Green where the last line is

E7 - Am - Dm

Is that Dm part of Am? Or part of Dm because after that it goes BbM7 - A7 - Dm?

Lots of fun :-)

[John A.]

To answer the what and why, and how questions more explicitly ...

"Analysis" is a process of examining a tune's form and harmony so that you can understand what's going in it. It can be an abstract and academic exercise, but in jazz (and other improv-based music) it's more pragmatic. Analysis gives you a framework for what notes to play, how to build melodies, and how to accompany the melody with chords. Analysis is completely independent of the instrument -- the form is the form, the melody is the melody, the harmony is the harmony regardless of the instrument you're playing. CAGED is strictly a guitar thing -- it's a tool for mapping out notes on the fingerboard that some people find useful (and some people do not). There's no CAGED system for piano or vocals (even if singers belong in cages).

Tunes typically have a form that repeats. Many standards are 32 measures long and are structured with two 8-measure sections sections ("A" and "B"). Often, the A section is played twice, then the B section is played, then the A section is played once more after the B section. The shorthand for this is to call the form AABA. Each repetition of a form is known as a chorus (note this is a different meaning from the way "chorus" is used in rock-based songs). So in deciding how to play a song, players will discuss who plays each section of the melody and how many chorus of solos to play. AABA is the most common form you encounter in jazz, but there are others. For instance, Autumn leaves (posted above) is ABC (it has a third section, C). Some tunes are just one long section (sometimes called "through composed")

When you learn a new tune, a good first step is to figure out the form. Sometimes a chart itself explicitly labels the sections, or if there's a vocal it's fairly obvious from the melody and lyrics what the sections are, but often you have to look at the chords and figure out where the breaks between sections are.

Within each section there are chord progressions that fall within one or more keys. Often, people will say that a tune is in a key (and/or the key signature at the beginning of the tune will indicate this), but that's a little deceptive. Tunes will often have at least one distinct key change ("modulation"), as well as passages where the key doesn't really change but there are notes and/or chords that seem to fall outside the key. This is where analysis comes in. You look at the chord progressions and melody for clues as to where the modulations are and where the sections that stray from the "key of the moment" via some sort of alteration or substitution are. Hypothetically you could ignore all that and just play notes from the arpeggios of each chord as you encounter it, but that typically doesn't sound very good. So you analyze the harmony in order to give yourself a broader palette of notes than just the chord tones and apply concepts like chord extension, alteration, and substitution.

I don't have time to really get too deeply into the "how" part for now or analyze a tune completely, but Alltunes' post above is a good jumping-off point for that. As he says, look for dominant 7 chords (V7) and what precedes and follows them. That's an indicator of where the keys change. Also look at the repeat symbols for clues as to to the form. Big picture, in the parts of the tune that are in G (first 4 bars of A), play notes that emphasize G-ness. In the E- parts, emphasize that. In the transition zones between the two, anticipate the change, for instance by playing notes that suggest E- in the last measure of G leading into the B7 (which is telling you that E minor is here).

Important note about keys: Even though G major and E minor have the same key signature and notes (1 sharp; GABCDEF#; EF#GABCD), minor keys have extra stuff going on. You have the "harmonic" minor scale, which replaces the flat 7 with a natural 7 (i.e., D# instead of D), and the "melodic" minor scale, which also replaces the flat 6 with a natural 6 (C# instead of C). This is what allows what creates a distinction between G major and E minor, and is especially important in and around the V chord of E minor (B7)

Note the measures where you have B7 chords, especially bar 6. There you have a C# and D# in the melody. C# is the 9th note in the B scale (both major and minor); D# is the 3rd note in B major. All of this goes to emphasize B7 acting as a V (dominant) chord in the E minor scale (and gives you "voice leading" to the E minor chord, a deep and complicated subject). Without getting too deeply into the why of it, playing the B7 chord as either a B7b9 or a B7#9 will sound good, and playing those altered 9th notes (C natural and D natural) as passing tones in a melody/improv will also sound cool.

Try to go through a process like this with a tune you already know.

[AllanAllen]

Otherwise, it's like that old joke where the kid says "Today I learned that two and two is four! What's a two?"

I love this.

[pamosmusic]

I'd love to give an example or two. Off the top of my head, there's the gool old chestnut of Stella where it goes from A7 to Cm. Not even Bernstein can figure that one out.

Then there's Alone Together where it goes

Gm7 - Bm7/E7 - Gm7/C7 - F

Where did that come from?

Then there's Blue In Green where the last line is

E7 - Am - Dm

Is that Dm part of Am? Or part of Dm because after that it goes BbM7 - A7 - Dm?

Lots of fun :-)

Well … my dear boy, if you tried a bit more analyzing, or saw the point rather, then you might know.

Also I’ll say that in jazz “analyzing” also means knowing a lot of tunes.

Like hey that Bm-E7 en route to F actually shows up in some versions of I Remember You too.

[John A.]

The subject of analysis is quite complex. I'm not going to answer the OP directly because it was quite obvious from the start that, if he'll forgive me, he wouldn't understand the answer. He needs to go back to basics and learn the essential facts and their terms.

But he did ask one pertinent question which was 'Why am I analysing at all'?

That's the point. Personally, I don't do an awful lot of analysing simply because it isn't necessary. There's not a lot of point in being able to identify the function of the chords, say, in one key. A glance at the lead sheet should be enough. The same thing applies even when there are modulations into different keys.

Analysis comes into its own when one comes across a chord or section that doesn't seem to fit into a basic format. Then a good knowledge of musical structure is necessary.

What often happens, especially with tricky examples, is that the so-called analysis becomes mere opinion. Different people will have different views. So, as I say, the subject of analysis can be troublesome; there's not always a straightforward answer.

To answer the OP's question, one might need to analyse a piece because it aids in determining how one should improvise over it. It points to what notes it needs, which doesn't necessarily mean scales, to bring out the sound that's required to make it sound right and flow.

I think that's the essential reason for analysis, not just to identify the symbolic name/function of a particular chord or chords. Anyone who knows the basics can do that. But on a proper level it would include taking into account the melody and whether the piece is tonal or modal, and so on, all of which needs a lot of knowledge and experience.

"identify[ing] the symbolic name/function of a particular chord or chords" IS analysis, not an outcome of it or reason for it. Yes, it's a basic level of analysis, but's a very important and useful level that serves one well for learning tunes, especially under conditions where you have to do so quickly. If you're experienced you take it for granted as a basic musicianship skill, but as a beginner understanding and recognizing functional harmony is very big and useful step.

[pamosmusic]

And for whatever this is worth ... probably not much ... Em7(b5) to A7 is a diminished sub and often traded in and out with the ii-V of the relative major Gm7 to C7. So with those you get Gm7 C7, Cm7 F7, Fm7 Bb7, Eb ... which is not weird at all. It's just shades of that diminished chord that starts the tune in the old movie version (and I'm fairly certain Peter Bernstein knows this).

That Bm7 to E7 in Alone Together is lovely. It takes a detour back through the regular ii-V but is often a post-bebop era sub for the common tone diminished, in this case Fdim7.

Blue in Green is cyclical and has some unusual harmony. Bounces back and forth between an Am7 and Dm7 tonal center, so the ambiguity is the point.

And now, we can only cross our fingers and hope that I've derailed the thread into a debate about whether or not I'm right.

[pamosmusic]

"identify[ing] the symbolic name/function of a particular chord or chords" IS analysis, not an outcome of it or reason for it. Yes, it's a basic level of analysis, but's a very important and useful level that serves one well for learning tunes, especially under conditions where you have to do so quickly. If you're experienced you take it for granted as a basic musicianship skill, but as a beginner understanding and recognizing functional harmony is very big and useful step.

Absolutely. And it's understanding that grows with your experience in the repertoire too. Which is sometimes overlooked as an aspect of "theory." We learn theory but the theory also helps us identify commonalities in the rep, and the commonalities in the rep help us understand the theory.

[John A.]

Absolutely. And it's understanding that grows with your experience in the repertoire too. Which is sometimes overlooked as an aspect of "theory." We learn theory but the theory also helps us identify commonalities in the rep, and the commonalities in the rep help us understand the theory.

Exactly.

[ragman1]

Well … my dear boy, if you tried a bit more analyzing, or saw the point rather, then you might know.
.

But I do know. They were examples, not a test. In any case, at least one of those would come under the opinion variety.

One thing I've found is that a lot of times the writer probably just put a sound in because he liked it that way, not for some obscure academic reason designed to drive theory nerds wild. Why would they bother?

[pauln]

And for whatever this is worth ... probably not much ... Em7(b5) to A7 is a diminished sub and often traded in and out with the ii-V of the relative major Gm7 to C7. So with those you get Gm7 C7, Cm7 F7, Fm7 Bb7, Eb ... which is not weird at all., so the ambiguity is the point.

And now, we can only cross our fingers and hope that I've derailed the thread into a debate about whether or not I'm right.

Let the melody be your guide?

xxxx11x
9x8910x

x8998x
x10111110x
x9101011x

xx886x
xx786x...

[ragman1]

"identify[ing] the symbolic name/function of a particular chord or chords" IS analysis, not an outcome of it or reason for it. Yes, it's a basic level of analysis, but's a very important and useful level that serves one well for learning tunes, especially under conditions where you have to do so quickly. If you're experienced you take it for granted as a basic musicianship skill, but as a beginner understanding and recognizing functional harmony is very big and useful step.

I said that. Of course knowing the simple stuff is the basis of analysis. That's why I suggested the OP needed to start there. He admitted he didn't know what 2-5-1 meant. And I knew he didn't long before he said it, I could tell.

[pamosmusic]

Let the melody be your guide?

xxxx11x
9x8910x

x8998x
x10111110x
x9101011x

xx886x
xx786x...

Are these chord fingerings? What are we looking at here?

But yeah for sure. Melody be you guide. Gm9 C13b9.

[ragman1]

And for whatever this is worth ... probably not much ... Em7(b5) to A7 is a diminished sub and often traded in and out with the ii-V of the relative major Gm7 to C7. So with those you get Gm7 C7, Cm7 F7, Fm7 Bb7, Eb ... which is not weird at all. It's just shades of that diminished chord that starts the tune in the old movie version (and I'm fairly certain Peter Bernstein knows this).

That Bm7 to E7 in Alone Together is lovely. It takes a detour back through the regular ii-V but is often a post-bebop era sub for the common tone diminished, in this case Fdim7.

Blue in Green is cyclical and has some unusual harmony. Bounces back and forth between an Am7 and Dm7 tonal center, so the ambiguity is the point.

And now, we can only cross our fingers and hope that I've derailed the thread into a debate about whether or not I'm right.

Oh god, there's always someone who needs to prove themselves. Anyway, I'm glad you thought my examples worthy of some brainpower.

[pamosmusic]

Ah well. Beautiful tunes are always worthy of a little brainpower, dearest ragman.

[Bobby Timmons]

Here's my rec:

musictheory.net - Lessons

EDIT: my problem with the Chat GPT answer is that there are actual decent resources on the internet if one takes the time to recommend them.

For the 3rd time, my suggestion wasn't to learn the subject matter from the bot, it was to hash out the initial precepts for approaching how to understand the problem. It's incredibly effective for that because you can interact and refine the question and conversation. You can start out not even knowing what the topic is, and in 10 minutes you can understand the basics of how you can go about it. It's crazy to me how people don't understand how effective a tool it is for learning and problem solving, and ever further they are apparently mad at it and tell you it's a bad resource.

For example, all this took a few minutes when it would take days on a forum or hours scrumming around on a google search:

What is the polar pattern for microphones?

ChatGPT said:

The polar pattern of a microphone describes how it responds to sounds coming from different directions. Here are the most common polar patterns:

1. Cardioid:
   
   • Picks up sound primarily from the front and rejects sound from the sides and rear. It is heart-shaped and is ideal for vocals or instruments where isolation from background noise is needed.
   
   
2. Supercardioid and Hypercardioid:
   
   • Similar to cardioid but with a narrower pickup in the front and some sensitivity to the rear. These patterns provide even more directional focus but capture a little more rear sound.
   
   
3. Omnidirectional:
   
   • Picks up sound equally from all directions (360 degrees). It is great for capturing room ambiance or for use when sound sources are located all around the mic.
   
   
4. Bidirectional (Figure-8):
   
   • Captures sound from both the front and the rear while rejecting sound from the sides. This is often used in studio settings for interviews or for recording multiple sound sources simultaneously.
   
   
5. Shotgun (Lobar):
   
   • Extremely directional with a very narrow pickup pattern. These mics are commonly used in film and television production to isolate sound from a specific direction over long distances.

Each pattern has a specific use depending on the environment and the desired result.

You said:

The patterns available on Sweetwater are Figure-8, Crossed Figure-8, Hypercardioid, Multi-pattern, and Supercardioid. Could you explain those?

ChatGPT said:

Sure! Here's a breakdown of the microphone polar patterns you mentioned that are available on Sweetwater:
1. Figure-8 (Bidirectional)

• Description: Picks up sound from the front and the rear of the microphone, but rejects sound from the sides.
• Use Case: Commonly used in stereo recording techniques or when capturing two sound sources, such as for interviews or duets where the mic is placed between the speakers.

2. Crossed Figure-8

• Description: A stereo recording technique where two figure-8 microphones are positioned with their pickup patterns intersecting. This can create a 3D stereo image by capturing sound from multiple directions.
• Use Case: Excellent for stereo recording, often used in recording orchestras or ensembles to create a natural stereo spread with a strong sense of spatial depth.

3. Hypercardioid

• Description: A highly directional pickup pattern that focuses mainly on the front of the microphone but has a small rear lobe that captures some sound from behind. It rejects more sound from the sides compared to a standard cardioid.
• Use Case: Used when you want to isolate sound more narrowly than a cardioid but with a slight pickup of room ambiance or when working in noisier environments where sound isolation is critical.

4. Multi-pattern

• Description: A microphone with the ability to switch between different polar patterns, such as cardioid, figure-8, omnidirectional, and more. This gives flexibility to adapt to various recording situations.
• Use Case: Versatile for studio use, ideal for users who want to experiment with different polar patterns in different recording scenarios, like vocals, instruments, or room miking.

5. Supercardioid

• Description: Even more focused than a cardioid, this pattern captures sound primarily from the front but has a slightly larger rear lobe than a hypercardioid. It provides tighter front-side isolation but picks up a small amount from the rear.
• Use Case: Commonly used in live sound applications where feedback control and sound isolation are essential, such as for live vocal performances or specific instrument miking.

These polar patterns offer different strengths based on the directionality and isolation you need for a recording or live setup.

You said:

So they don't really have any unidirectional ribbon mics?

ChatGPT said:

It seems that Sweetwater doesn't list any unidirectional ribbon mics specifically, like a cardioid ribbon mic. Most ribbon microphones typically have a figure-8 (bidirectional) polar pattern due to the nature of how ribbon mics are designed, capturing sound from both the front and back.
However, there are some modern ribbon mics with more specialized polar patterns, including cardioid or supercardioid. These are usually achieved through specific engineering, such as using internal acoustic labyrinths or active electronics to modify the pattern. But they are less common and may not be widely available on every retailer.
If you're looking for a ribbon mic with a unidirectional (cardioid or similar) polar pattern, you'd need to search specifically for models that advertise that feature, such as the Royer R-122 MKII (which is active and cardioid) or similar designs. You might want to ask Sweetwater directly or search for "cardioid ribbon mics" on their site for the most accurate options.

You said:

I see, thx.

ChatGPT said:

You're welcome! Glad I could help clarify. If you have any more questions about microphones or anything else, feel free to ask!

You said:

Can I mute the back and sides of my figure 8 ribbon mic with a cloth or something if I want less extraneous / room sound?

ChatGPT said:

Technically, you can reduce some of the room or extraneous sound by covering parts of the microphone, but it's not an ideal solution and may affect the sound quality in unintended ways. Here's what might happen:

• Muting the rear with a cloth: If you cover the back of a figure-8 ribbon mic, you might reduce the sensitivity to sound coming from behind. However, this can also alter the frequency response of the microphone, potentially muffling the sound or changing its tonal balance.
• Sound reflections: Covering the sides or rear could cause the sound to reflect off the cloth or material, introducing unwanted coloration or resonance to the recorded sound.

If you're trying to reduce room sound while keeping a clean capture from the front, here are some alternatives:

1. Use a gobo or acoustic panel: Place an acoustic shield or panel behind the mic to absorb sound reflections and minimize rear sound pickup.
2. Move the mic closer to the source: Reducing the distance between the mic and the sound source can increase the direct sound and reduce the influence of room sound.
3. Consider microphone placement: Position the mic to minimize room reflections, such as moving away from walls or using more absorbent surfaces in the room.

Covering the mic isn't ideal, but experimenting with room acoustics and positioning should give you a cleaner sound without compromising the mic's natural qualities.

You said:

Thx. I think ribbon mics are my favorite for the balance of warmth and clarity, but I want less room sound and want it to sound more direct. Since I'll be using it primarily for my piano which sounds quite airy.

ChatGPT said:

Ribbon mics are an excellent choice for capturing piano, especially if you're looking for a balance of warmth and natural clarity. They tend to smooth out harsher tones and can provide a very natural, intimate sound. If you're trying to make your piano recordings more direct and reduce room sound while maintaining the qualities of the ribbon mic, here are a few tips:
1. Close Miking:

• Move the mic closer to the piano strings to pick up more direct sound and less room ambiance. Placing the ribbon mic around 8-12 inches from the strings, angled toward the hammers, can give you more detail and presence.

2. Use Absorption Panels or Blankets:

• Set up absorption panels or thick blankets around the piano or behind the mic to reduce room reflections. This helps control the ambient sound and focus the recording more on the direct sound from the piano.

3. Stereo Pair (if applicable):

• If you're using a single figure-8 mic, you can pair it with another mic (like a cardioid condenser) to focus on direct sound while using the ribbon to capture warmth. Or, if you're using two ribbon mics in a stereo pair (e.g., Blumlein technique), you can adjust their position to reduce the room's influence.

4. Ribbon Mic with Different Polar Patterns:

• Consider getting a multi-pattern ribbon mic if you want more control over room sound. Some ribbon mics, like the Royer R-122 MKII, offer directional patterns (like cardioid) that can help focus on the direct sound without picking up as much of the room.

5. Piano Lid Position:

• Adjust the piano lid to control how much sound escapes into the room. Having the lid half-closed or even fully open but angled toward the mic can direct more of the sound into the microphone, giving a more present, direct tone.

6. Post-production:

• EQ and compression can help in post-production to control the amount of room sound in your recordings. A little EQ cut in the lower mids (around 200-400 Hz) can reduce the "airiness" and room noise, while compression can tighten up the dynamic range, making the direct sound more prominent.

By experimenting with mic placement and acoustic treatments, you should be able to capture that warm, detailed ribbon mic sound without too much room ambiance.

[Mick-7]

I'd love to give an example or two. Off the top of my head, there's the gool old chestnut of Stella where it goes from A7 to Cm. Not even Bernstein can figure that one out.

Then there's Alone Together where it goes

Gm7 - Bm7/E7 - Gm7/C7 - F

Where did that come from?

Then there's Blue In Green where the last line is

E7 - Am - Dm

Is that Dm part of Am? Or part of Dm because after that it goes BbM7 - A7 - Dm?

Lots of fun :-)

Not that unusual, the tune goes to a IIm11 from the VII7 rather than to the IIIm7 chord. The first chord of the song can also be considered a VIIm7(b5) chord (in fact the original chart has a VIIm7b5 rather than a #IVm7b5). In Alone Together it's just going to the parallel major key.

One thing I've found is that a lot of times the writer probably just put a sound in because he liked it that way

Well sure, but theory can explain why it worked, it's useful in that way. It can't always explain every chord progression but it can show you the big harmonic picture.

[pamosmusic]

For the 3rd time, my suggestion wasn't to learn the subject matter from the bot, it was to hash out the initial precepts for approaching how to understand the problem. It's incredibly effective for that because you can interact and refine the question and conversation. You can start out not even knowing what the topic is, and in 10 minutes you can understand the basics of how you can go about it. It's crazy to me how people don't understand how effective a tool it is for learning and problem solving, and ever further they are apparently mad at it and tell you it's a bad resource.

I get what you're saying. I just thought he already had a question formulated and had already gotten a few answers that mostly make sense. I'm always a little perplexed by the folks who chime in on internet forum discussions to say that internet forums are a bad way to get answers.

Be the change you want to see in the world, friends.

[pauln]

Are these chord fingerings? What are we looking at here?

But yeah for sure. Melody be you guide. Gm9 C13b9.

The beginning of Stella, your mention of Gm7 made me go look for it. The second group with three chords is a passing phrase substitute for the A7 (before Cm7) whose sounds are ambiguous enough to be multiply rooted (including G), still harmonizing the melody.

[pamosmusic]

The beginning of Stella, your mention of Gm7 made me go look for it. The second group with three chords is a passing phrase substitute for the A7 (before Cm7) whose sounds are ambiguous enough to be multiply rooted (including G), still harmonizing the melody.

Pardon, but that middle group of chords seems to have eight or nine strings? Others only five? Others stretch from ninth fret to first?

[AllanAllen]

Pardon, but that middle group of chords seems to have eight or nine strings? Others only five? Others stretch from ninth fret to first?

I think there are some 10s and 11s in there without spaces.

[jazznylon]

Let the melody be your guide?

xxxx11x
9x8910x

x8998x
x10111110x
x9101011x

xx886x
xx786x...

Might be a good idea to put parentheses around double digit numbers

[pamosmusic]

I think there are some 10s and 11s in there without spaces.

My analytical skills in action.

[pauln]

My analytical skills in action.

I used to separate the fret number for each string, but I saw so many not do so I imagined that was the popular convention. Similar to chord types where the typography uses superscript rather than parentheses to distinguish Ab(13) from A(b13), I see most casually written chord types skip the offset when there is no ambiguity, until there is. I'll return to the more explicit chord fingering form for clarity, but continue to resist naming them (as an exercise for the reader/player).

[Bobby Timmons]

I get what you're saying. I just thought he already had a question formulated and had already gotten a few answers that mostly make sense. I'm always a little perplexed by the folks who chime in on internet forum discussions to say that internet forums are a bad way to get answers.

Be the change you want to see in the world, friends.

Ur mad. I gave him a suggestion for extremely efficient problem solving that you can apply to anything. In addition to whatever else information systems that you like to use, not in exclusion to them. I didn't say don't use forums, I pointed out their inefficiencies. You're the one who poo pood my suggestion, and irrationally. Kind of strange.