Why can’t we live in peace?

[Tal_175]

Why would I extend any grace to you when all you're doing is making every possible effort to straw man me in order to invalidate my and the rest of the Christians on this thread's beliefs? I respect your stance that you don't see God as a logical necessity for explaining reality, but that you ultimately don't know the explanation for everything since it's impossible to prove at this point. That's perfectly logical. The least you could do is extend the same standard to Christians as you expect for yourself.

That's called agnosticism like Mick said.

Who told you that? General Relativity has been accepted unproven for over 100 years lol.

You're being extremely irrational. Why would I have to prove something that isn't stated as a fact? That is 100% a double standard. You're trying to say that you get to invalidate Christianity because it's not provable at present, but incidentally your belief stands as the default even though it's not provable either.

What am I smuggling? I'm saying the exact same thing as you: I believe in what's empirical and observable, I just happen to believe that Christianity is also true and congruent with scientific systems, although this is unproven, it's a belief. You seem to be saying that you get to hold the empirical high ground, while also reserving the right to not know, and you get to invalidate my stance while also opting out of accountability yourself. That's idiotic.

Sorry I can't debate with you further. I don't have time to explain these points to you. Your points show that I'll have to spend a very long time breaking down fairly elementary reasoning steps in order to make progress with you. Make of this response what you will.

[Strat-itis]

Yup, finish with an ad hominem instead of logic. You're forfeiting because you lost. Enjoy your rigorously empirical day.

[DawgBone]

Yup, finish with an ad hominem instead of logic. You're forfeiting because you lost. Enjoy your rigorously empirical day.

Active denial of what is obvious takes up a ton of mental energy and if I dare say, saps the spirit.

[supersoul]

Hey Mark,

great piece of music, I listened to it twice.

Peace is something to always strive for, even though we'll probably never get there.

However... in Star Trek the human race has finally realized the futility of war, and it's possible that the show is a pre-documentary for how things will be.

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Hey Mark,

great piece of music, I listened to it twice.

Peace is something to always strive for, even though we'll probably never get there.

However... in Star Trek the human race has finally realized the futility of war, and it's possible that the show is a pre-documentary for how things will be.

.

Yeah, and even the Klingons became our friends. Hope springs eternal.

[StormyMonday]

Wow where this went. I had a very peaceful walk today with a neighbor whose company my wife and I enjoy a lot. It's a slow walk as she needs a walker these days. She is a Wiccan High Priestess, just a fascinating person and very educated in religious studies. Of course before any of the current religions started staking claims on being the one truth religions like Wicca celebrated the Creator - The Goddess. It's interesting how the men folk wiped that out to seize power over souls. I don't follow any of it as I see religion as a human creation, better to live a life I can feel proud of no matter which deity (if any) I need to face. Afterwards I went home and blasted Bruce Cockburn's " If I Had A Rocket Launcher" to restore my rage level to normal. Peace out!

[DawgBone]

Wow where this went. I had a very peaceful walk today with a neighbor whose company my wife and I enjoy a lot. It's a slow walk as she needs a walker these days. She is a Wiccan High Priestess, just a fascinating person and very educated in religious studies. Of course before any of the current religions started staking claims on being the one truth religions like Wicca celebrated the Creator - The Goddess. It's interesting how the men folk wiped that out to seize power over souls. I don't follow any of it as I see religion as a human creation, better to live a life I can feel proud of no matter which deity (if any) I need to face. Afterwards I went home and blasted Bruce Cockburn's " If I Had A Rocket Launcher" to restore my rage level to normal. Peace out!

Pride is a vice, not a virtue.

[StormyMonday]

Depends what you're proud of I suppose, as well as whatever the great figure skating judge in the sky decides to rate us on (if that's actually a thing).

[MisterMitch]

Everyone needs to go Christian.

I find your comment arrogant, childish and offending.
People here are grown ups, probably more educated than you are, and able to make their own choices.
Proselytizing is the origin of all religious wars, and your attempt here goes against the message of the OP.
And don't start here a conversation about General Relativity, astrophysics, quantum mechanics or whatever if you're not able to go very far.
May the Great Juju at the bottom of the sea eat your soul !

[DawgBone]

Depends what you're proud of I suppose, as well as whatever the great figure skating judge in the sky decides to rate us on (if that's actually a thing).

Pride is the sin that caused lucifer to be cast from heaven. The dread judgement seat of Christ is something to fear.

[Stevebol]

Depends what you're proud of I suppose, as well as whatever the great figure skating judge in the sky decides to rate us on (if that's actually a thing).

The big kahuna doesn't like music. That's why he made us court jesters.

[Aiq]

Conflict is much more correlated with the absence of religion.

Not sure if serious.

Might want to read the Federalist Papers promoting separation of church and state due to 900 years of religious war during the so called Middle Ages.

Or The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine.

Worship your whatever but keep it out of my government and schools.

Hard rain.

[DawgBone]

Not sure if serious.

Might want to read the Federalist Papers promoting separation of church and state due to 900 years of religious war during the so called Middle Ages.

Or The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine.

Worship your whatever but keep it out of my government and schools.

Hard rain.

We went over this. An estimated 100-150 million people died as a result of wars fought in the 20th century, almost all of which were secular in nature and fought over land, resources, and political differences. A better case could be made for nationalism being the greatest source of conflict. Prior to that the mongols slaughtered the most people in the 13th century, mainly for riches and conquering for the sake of conquering. You're repeating talking points related to Islam's incursion into europe and european christians responding with counter attacks and incursions into the middle east but they are factually not the greatest source of death, misery, and suffering.

[Strat-itis]

I find your comment arrogant, childish and offending.

You need to straighten out and go Christian.

[Tal_175]

Who told you that? General Relativity has been accepted unproven for over 100 years lol.

OK, I'll bite. Just to demonstrate the kind of lazy thinking that you have to rely on in order to maintain your faith as demonstrated by your posts.

General Relativity is not proven in the strict sense only because the standards of proof in physics is infinitely higher than in religious faith. General Relativity is a falsifiable, testable theory. Both special and general relativity have been tested exhaustively, repeatedly, and with extremely high precision, across more than a century of experiments. No credible experiment to date has contradicted their predictions. I listed some of the thousands of tests that have done in the last 100 years or so below*

Any one of these tests could have refuted relativity but they all produced results predicted by the theory with extraordinarily high precision and moreover some these results were highly counter intuitive to the prior Newtonian understanding of the universe. Each time a carefully conducted test verifies relativity, that increases the degree of belief. Because that's how rational people think. To compare this type of belief heuristics to the kind that allows for unfalsifiable, childish notions required in order to maintain Christian faith like the existence of angels and demons, after-life, a human like God that loves, takes petty revenges, and seeks personal relationships, is deeply unserious.

I bet this is not gonna move the needle for you as it seems you have an endless resource of lazy thinking that gives you beliefs a shelter.











*
For example the Large Hadron Collidertest relativity, and the results confirmed it. More precisely, LHC experiments have performed some of the most sensitive tests ever done of special relativity, especially its core principle: Lorentz symmetry.
Precision tests in the Solar System Modern experiments have pushed accuracy to extreme levels: Shapiro time delay (radar signals passing near the Sun) measured since the 1970s, matching GR’s predictions. Frame dragging confirmed by Gravity Probe B and satellite laser ranging. Equivalence principle tests torsion-balance experiments and atomic clocks strongly support Einstein’s Equivalence Principle. Strong?field tests (where gravity is extreme) Binary pulsars The Hulse-Taylor pulsar shows orbital decay exactly matching GR’s prediction for gravitational?wave energy loss, to better than 0.5%. Other pulsar systems Provide independent, high?precision tests of strong?gravity effects.


Mercury’s perihelion precession - GR explains the extra 43 arcseconds/century that Newtonian gravity could not.

[Mark Kleinhaut]

OK, I'll bite. Just to demonstrate the kind of lazy thinking that you have to rely on in order to maintain your faith as demonstrated by your posts.

General Relativity is not proven in the strict sense only because the standards of proof in physics is infinitely higher than in religious faith. General Relativity is a falsifiable, testable theory. It is based on mathematical models that are consistent with verifiable physics that has been developed over the centuries. Both special and general relativity have been tested exhaustively, repeatedly, and with extremely high precision, across more than a century of experiments. No credible experiment to date has contradicted their predictions. I listed some of the thousands of tests that have done in the last 100 years or so below*

Any one of these tests could have refuted relativity but they all produced results with extraordinarily high precision and moreover these results were highly counter intuitive to the prior Newtonian understanding of the universe. Each time a carefully conducted test verifies relativity, that increases the degree of belief. Because that's how rational people think. To compare this type of belief heuristics to the kind of unfalsifiable, childish notions required in order to maintain Christian faith like the existence of angles and demons, after-life, a human like God that loves, takes petty revenges, and seeks personal relationships, is deeply unserious.

I bet this is not gonna move the needle for you as it seems you have an infinite resource of lazy thinking that gives you beliefs a shelter.











*
For example the Large Hadron Collidertest relativity, and the results confirmed it. More precisely, LHC experiments have performed some of the most sensitive tests ever done of special relativity, especially its core principle: Lorentz symmetry.
Precision tests in the Solar System Modern experiments have pushed accuracy to extreme levels: Shapiro time delay (radar signals passing near the Sun) measured since the 1970s, matching GR’s predictions. Frame dragging confirmed by Gravity Probe B and satellite laser ranging. Equivalence principle tests torsion-balance experiments and atomic clocks strongly support Einstein’s Equivalence Principle. Strong?field tests (where gravity is extreme) Binary pulsars The Hulse-Taylor pulsar shows orbital decay exactly matching GR’s prediction for gravitational?wave energy loss, to better than 0.5%. Other pulsar systems Provide independent, high?precision tests of strong?gravity effects.


Mercury’s perihelion precession - GR explains the extra 43 arcseconds/century that Newtonian gravity could not.

ok science guy but can anyone explain why worship music went from Bach to devolve in to drek being produced nowadays?

[Christian Miller]

ok science guy but can anyone explain why worship music went from Bach to devolve in to drek being produced nowadays?

If you go back the church records from Bach’s church in Leipzig it’s most the congregation moaning about Bach’s weird reharmonisations of hymns, and when on earth he’s coming back from studying Buxtehude scores in Lübeck to actually do his job.

But I went to catholic school. The Vatican II policy on church music is not one I endorse. Broadly it’s similar to what ever it is the Colonial Heretics insist on doing in their conference centres. The thing that involves Strymon pedals.

Luckily we have the High Anglican Church for the bells and smells.

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[Mark Kleinhaut]

If you go back the church records from Bach’s church in Leipzig it’s most the congregation moaning about Bach’s weird reharmonisations of hymns, and when on earth he’s coming back from studying Buxtehude scores in Lübeck to actually do his job.

But I went to catholic school. The Vatican II policy on church music is not one I endorse. Broadly it’s similar to what ever it is the Colonial Heretics insist on doing in their conference centres.

Luckily we have the High Anglican Church for the bells and smells.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Buxtehude!!

[Christian Miller]

Buxtehude!!

Bless you! Here, have an antihistamine


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Christian Miller]

Ehh, I don't love this comparison. Scientific models are correct in certain regimes and fail in others. This is what led to the discovery of GR.

Currently, GR fails at cosmological scales, so scientists have proposed new modified theories or alternatively the existence of Dark Matter. Dark Matter isn't really nothing, it is matter that doesn't interact with the electromagnetic forces. They have also several different candidates of matter from Axons to WIMPs that they are trying.

This is not really correct.

GR doesn’t really fail at any observed scale. We assume GR is incomplete because it is incompatible with the equally successful Standard Model of particle physics, but we haven’t yet made any observations that contradict either.

(In the strict philosophical sense no physics theory is ever ‘proven’ but in practice physicists do not feel the need to constantly re litigate the gas laws, or Maxwells equations. Or GR.)

There are a large number of observed phenomena that are consistent with a cosmological model that includes so-called Dark Matter. Which makes it quite a successful model.

It’s possible that you getting this confused with so called modified Newtonian gravity (MOND) which is a relatively fringe theory that only addresses galactic rotation velocity curves and not the other stuff that Dark Matter addresses. This proposes a modification to newton’s laws for extremely low accelerations.

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[Mark Kleinhaut]

Bless you! Here, have an antihistamine


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Take 2 Tristanos and call me in the morning.

[Tal_175]

ok science guy but can anyone explain why worship music went from Bach to devolve in to drek being produced nowadays?

On a related note, can anyone point me to an example of Bach using the natural 6th within the minor context? I asked AI but it is a free one and keeps making up stuff.

[DawgBone]

Because that's how rational people think. To compare this type of belief heuristics to the kind that allows for unfalsifiable, childish notions required in order to maintain Christian faith like the existence of angels and demons, after-life, a human like God that loves, takes petty revenges, and seeks personal relationships, is deeply unserious.

I bet this is not gonna move the needle for you as it seems you have an endless resource of lazy thinking that gives you beliefs a shelter.

Head knowledge never fosters peace.

[Marty Grass]

You misspelled datum the second mentioned above;
do you even know how to use it's nominative forms?

You got me on the spelling. It slipped past me and spell check.

You'd probably make a good editor.

[Stringswinger]

To compare this type of belief heuristics to the kind that allows for unfalsifiable, childish notions required in order to maintain Christian faith like the existence of angels and demons, after-life, a human like God that loves, takes petty revenges, and seeks personal relationships, is deeply unserious.

When you reduce the belief system of others to something "childish", you cross the line into the world of the "unserious". It is arguably ad-hominem, which never moves the needle in a serious debate.

I do not believe in the anthropomorphic, Abrahamic God of the Torah/Bible/Koran, but I do recognize the utility that religion plays, both for keeping society orderly and also for controlling the masses (arguably the two are the same thing). In the battle for souls by the Abrahamic religions, Christianity and Islam have done way better than Judaism for many reasons. One reason is that they are universal, you don't have to join a particular ethnic group (the Jews) to become a member of the faith, Another reason is that Christianity and Islam have included the pagan concepts of heaven and hell. Heaven is the carrot, live a moral life and you will be reunited with loved ones in paradise for eternity. This keeps family units together (in theory). Hell is the stick. Act badly and you spend eternity in unfathomable punishment. There is nothing childish about having a belief system that keeps society running well. The alternative is the modern free for all that America and Western Europe are now grappling with. No Gods and no rules. Gender becomes a choice rather than an immutable characteristic assigned by nature. Race becomes a social construct that doesn't actually exist, even as quotas are demanded on the basis of race. Hard work and thrift are discouraged with wealth redistribution while laziness is encouraged with social programs that demand little from the recipients of the aid.

I like the American Republican system with no Kings or State religions. But i also respect people of faith who work hard and contribute to an orderly society. And I do not find their belief systems that leave me unconvinced "childish".