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Thanks for commenting about the music (why we’re all here, right?).
Originally Posted by frabarmus
One interpretation of my post would be that I’m attempting a demonstration that peace is real and attainable through our music. A state of mind we can readily recognize, and of course there’s many things in life that can bring us peace. As far as the literal “can we just stop killing each other”, which I can see I clearly fed with my opening comments, I would argue that we can live in peace for periods of time. We cycle from peace to war to peace to war throughout history just as we can see in nature the calm and the storm, the upheaval and the repose. It’s all tension and release. I can accept peace will never be everlasting, but I still maintain we can have it now for at lease a while. And yes, we should demand that.
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05-20-2026 09:31 AM
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I think of great men like Gorbachev and Jimmy Carter who worked to make the world peaceful. Now we have Putin, Netanyahu, and Trump among others who seem to not value peace. Originally Posted by Mark Kleinhaut
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Don't want to be that guy, but there will never be peace as long as there is organized religion.
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that is a rather western-centric view unsupported by human history. the worst war right now is happening in sudan. Originally Posted by James W
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Not wishing to debate this but Sudan is a former British colony and last time I checked the British government has not sanctioned the UAE for its role in the genocide being perpetrated in this country. Originally Posted by djg
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This is true, so long as we are including Capitalism, Communism, or any other -ism you can think of as an "organized religion". The "God" in those "religions" being money and/or power. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
You could rid the world of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and Hinduism, and it will remain a very un-peaceful place. Because humans will always war over resources, money, power.
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As if secularists hold the moral high ground by default. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Conflict is baked into the DNA of all predators and humans are predators. Conflict is in our nature, though TBF, some of us are more peaceful than others. Peace is aspirational and Jesus of Nazareth did praise the peacemakers. Benjamin Franklin once opined that as bad as mankind has been with religion, that things would be worse without religion. I concur. As I have yet to see much peacefulness come from Nations that are officially atheist, I am certain that eliminating organized religion would not end the conflicts. Originally Posted by ruger9
I am of the opinion (and these days it is very much a minority opinion) that most, if not all of our major problems stem from overpopulation. Put too many rats in a cage and violence erupts. I am unsure how to fix that problem, I am just convinced that so long as there are too many of us, we will never know much peace.
Music can indeed be a refuge from the tumult. That said, I have heard some avant-garde music that was quite tumultuous. Humans have a way of bringing their unpeaceful nature everywhere it seems.
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"Organized religion" is too broad of a brush. The worst conflicts were fought in the 20th century and were all secular in nature. Religion played little more than a background role. I could bring up highly secular communist states that are still putting practicioners of organized religion in jail or sentencing them to death by the millions since the early 20th century. So clearly, man can't live peacefully without religion either. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I guess what I was really getting at isn't just "n0 m0rE wArZ". Financial peace, peace with one's family, peace with one's neighbors, peace with oneself. It doesn't, and cannot, fully exist here. I don't even have peace with my guitar chops. It's a fallen world, a fallen state. Peace will not be the norm but rather a temporary exception to standard operating procedure.
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I don't believe in overpopulation, I believe that greed creates conflict. When a handful of people think they "own" the resources the planet has provided all of the natural world in abundance, you cannot live in peace with that. In fact, such systems must be disassembled for peace, and then men will have to have a change of heart for a harmonious existence to endure rather than a change of political systems. I need to get back to my guitar. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
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Religion is a complex subject... I was brought up as a catholic but, to be honest, I've always been agnostic (with buddhist sympathies at various stages in my life). Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Religion has a spiritual/mystical/contemplative side to it that's positive (or, at least, not harmful in anyway) IMO. It's more the ideological side of it that feeds cognitive bias and, potentially, fanatism. However, for many of us, it's difficult to shed deeply rooted tradition, mentality or prejudice (or, sometimes, misplaced "pride").
I agree with Mark that those of us who are artistically inclined and/or have a passion like music, may, perhaps, have a better chance of seeing things with a little more "detachment" and contribute towards making the world a less hostile place... (?)
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My comment, obviously meant to be provocative, is not actually meant to suggest that religion is the main or only problem. It is rather, one of the oldest and hardest to let go of problems.
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Pro tip: If the religion says thou shalt not kill and people kill, it's not religion's fault for following it, it's people's fault for not following it. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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(The problem) It's not the teaching or the teachers... it's what followers of the teachers/teachings make of it all, how they interpret it, re-elaborate it, misrepresent it etc. Originally Posted by Strat-itis
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So? That doesn't mean secularists get to claim the moral high ground and stereotype religion as a negative force, when it would be pretty hard to prove that secularists are the more righteous party overall.. That's a bit inverted.
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Yes, that's implicit in what I've said. "Moral high ground" is more an individual's achievement (and a difficult one). Religion is human, "perfection" is not... (and secularism is human, too) Originally Posted by Strat-itis
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The stone tools that our ancestors were making 3 million years ago suggest an ability for abstract thought and a skill set I don't see in everyone... Originally Posted by James W
Happy to hear of any sources you have for pre history, ie , < 5000 years ago when the earliest known writing appears.
Wars and conflict have been pretty common since then everywhere I'm aware of..
I suspect the advent of farming 10 - 12 thousand years ago led to the conflicts over land use that continue today all across Africa between nomadic cattle herders and farmers.
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Right, and the advent of farming consists of a small proportion of the history of the existence of humans which like I said is around 300,000 years. My point is that people can waffle on about 'human nature' as though things like war are omnipresent inevitable aspects of humanity. Capitalism has only been around for a few hundred years, and not all countries are as warmongering as certain others (naming no names). Originally Posted by dot75
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Jeeze- what the f did I start here? Just because we don’t do better doesn’t mean we can’t do better. It may be hopeless, but I will try…
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Why make a distinction for Europeans?! Originally Posted by James W
People are the SAME EVERYWHERE on this $HITTY GLOBE called Earth.
As many filosofers already mentioned in the past: 'human "kind?!" is a U$ELE$$ being'
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The peace that truly matters is inner. And I think you've found that, Mark.
And just because we've found something doesn't mean we can't lose it from time to time, or that we don't have to work on it. But man, music sure is a good way to work on it.
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Lord Byron said there's music in all things, if (wo)men had ears.
So, to every ear, music means something different:
In an attempt to answer your, possibly rhetorical, question:
1. Because every generation inevitably starts from scratch—and parts of every generation remain stuck at square one, even years later, without realizing it themselves.
2. Because of all the manipulation and brainwashing by misguided (seemingly) powerful and successful people—or, conversely put, because of the gullibility and lack of skepticism of the majority.
As always, great music from you!
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Peace thru superior jazz chops. Originally Posted by Mark Kleinhaut
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Folks can make almost anything into a religion - people tend to develop fixed viewpoints. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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