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I think all players struggle with this - if I make time for fundamentals, I never learn enough tunes and at the jam I'm sitting out or feeling uncomfortable. If I spend time learning tunes, I can hang more but play less, and dont have time to hone necessary fundamentals.
Splitting both feels like doing both badly.
So far, I have progressed from ALL technique / non musical practice to practice everything in the context of tunes, but this still feels like its missing a lot.
For example, if I work on rhythm, transcription, a phrase or two, some comping, etc etc, (all with a teacher and all I really need), that could take all day. The best I could do is maybe work on mastering a rhythmic phrase, but over a few scales from a tune. Or take a phrase through all my repertoire, just comping shells then playing where it fits in some tunes. While this is better than zero context it hardly makes you feel like you can play the tune fully.
People who constantly refrain that we should just learn and practice on tunes, was this after you were fairly advanced, or is there a way you do this? In my head, learning a new tune by ear, being able to play melody and comp in multiple positions, then play arps or chord tones, and play the scales however you choose to (BH scales, major scale fingerings, etc), then take language through the tune, then make a chord melody, then move all through 12 keys - makes sense to truly learn it, but that seems like something only a world class player could do as part of some daily routine.
I'm stuck between actually progressing my jazz skills and having something to play at jams and especially solo. Seems like there isnt time for both even with my 6 hours of available practice time each day which I do fill, just usually with a focus on the former.
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05-11-2026 07:08 PM
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What does your teacher think about all this?
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This is something everyone struggles with, especially at first - you need technique to express ideas, but nobody wants to play scales or picking exercises exclusively for years before trying to actually make music :-)
I asked a similar question to yours when I was studying with Steve Erquiaga. He gave me this very practical advice: learn to play the tune one way before overwhelming yourself with all of the "other ways." i.e. Learn the head in one key, learn one set of chord grips that you can use to comp behind a soloist when playing that key, and learn one approach to soloing (e.g. arpeggios that are comfortable for you, perhaps a few worked-out melodic embellishments or other ideas.) Learn that "first take" on the tune solidly before you go down the rabbit hole of other keys, other positions, other approaches.
When you have a solid basic version of the tune down, you can expand on it as you progress, adding new chord voicings, new solo ideas, new keys, and so on.
That approach has worked well for me. TBH I don't think I'll ever be done working on technique and general jazz skill set, so having a framework into which I can add things as they become ready has been very helpful.
HTH
SJ
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This is good advice methinks.
Originally Posted by starjasmine
A good checklist:
1. Melody in two registers — high and low.
2. Shells in both “positions” — eg first chord with A string root, or first chord with E string root.
3. voicelead through the arpeggios in the same positions you have the melody.
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Originally Posted by StringAddict
Not to put too fine a point on it but I don’t take them super seriously.
Most good players I know take their technique pretty seriously.
Efficiency is another matter. I don’t have much use for spider drills, but I spend a lot of time marking picking patterns onto lines I’ve transcribed. I play them super slowly and work the tempos up. I’ve been working on the same lick now for two or three weeks.
So lots of ways to get after technique that is tune adjacent. A bebop head, for example. It’s just you also need the discipline to really be patient with that process.
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The best learning is to play as many concerts as possible.
Slowly adding new tunes to the repertoire.
Listen to other musicians' versions on different instruments.
Because nowadays there is a lot of access to backing tracks.... practice, practice, practice.
Then you will have the pleasure of playing.
Some find it easier, others find it more difficult, but in general, the final test is the concert.
Methods of learning tunes are a separate topic.
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You are on a learning curve, but your expectations are not in line.
First problem: "sitting in, feeling uncomfortable at jams..."
a "jam" is typically some kind of get together where people meet and play together for fun, unpretentious. You could jam together with your buddies in a garage and nobody but you and your company would hear the noise (i.e you don't have to be embarrassed). You could jam a single tune for hours, to get a feel for the music and the sound. You need a rehearsal space, somewhere where you and your friends can play undisturbed.
Jamming in front of an audience that have paid money to hear you is a very different thing. First you have to understand that the comp/rhythm section must have a plan before they enter the stage, providing a solid foundation for some soloist that can just play along (just like soloing over a backing track).
(I guess these days there are events where players that don't know each other go for the opportunity to perform on stage...somebody better have a plan, or this would be a disaster, sorry.)
-Maybe someone told you that you have to play in front of an audience to progress? Maybe someone wants you to pay money for the opportunity to sit in?
Maybe you are attending "jams", looking for company, people to play with on a regular basis? Look for guys on the same level and you will grow together. You'll need a rehearsal space, or it won't happen.
Once you have a plan you need to concentrate on a set list, e.g 10 songs that you rehearse well before you bring it to an audience.
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Why not practice the fundamentals in tunes. It's all II-V-Is anyways
I think it's better to work on things in many tunes rather than one, voicings, licks, rhythms etc.
I also use an in between area, where I practice musical things but more organized. Like particular progressions, intros, outros, actual parts of songs.
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In order not to make practicing the basics of improvisation boring, you need to choose songs that are suitable for the exercise.
E.g. 'Tune up' is ideal for practicing 251 progressions.
Try to play heads and improvisations in different styles.
Playing jazz should be a pleasure.
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This is actually what I do, I wasnt that good at articulating in my post sorry - this is definitely an improvement for me but my point is lets say I transcribed a phrase or two to work on. Originally Posted by Alter
Why not practice the fundamentals in tunes. It's all II-V-Is anyways I think it's better to work on things in many tunes rather than one, voicings, licks, rhythms etc.
I also use an in between area, where I practice musical things but more organized. Like particular progressions, intros, outros, actual parts of songs.
In a days work (5-6 hours) I may get down playing that phrase everywhere to get it under my fingers, then getting it smooth enough. Then lets say its a V-I. Well I can bring it through my repertoire for a while. Then I may need to work on some rhythm (guitar teacher prescribed) so I will take a rhythmic fragment through the chord tones of a tune if i can, or at least 4 bars, until I can really get it. That may take me all my practice time with other non tune based things like working on a transcription.
Even though it was in tunes which helps, it just feels like working on a tiny fragment of a tune at a time. Spread this across ten tunes and well, it begins to feel like I dont really know the tune but rather just a tiny section where I can play some things.
Maybe I am just lost in the sauce?
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Well he has stressed that at my stage I should learn more tunes and not focus on depth on just one or two but breadth to build repertoire and start playing with people. He is right because the first two years of learning I just played like 2-3 tunes to really build on and I was ready to learn more. Originally Posted by joe2758
Its more about how I manage my own practice time. I'm always double thinking about it, but I'd like to strive towards a totally tune based practice - I guess the point is that where I am at, I cannot cover a whole tune in a day for my ten tunes I know when it comes to what I am working on - I have to focus on 4 bars or so on one tune so it is not sloppy, and that takes me most of the day!
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You don't need to learn hundreds of songs.
My experience, pick one song and play it well. Then, when you can play that song well, maybe add another song.
Edit: Get a good teacher.
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Lots of good advice here...not sure if that's a good thing for your problem!
A good teacher can help you prioritize and structure your practicing.
Here's an example: If I hired a doctor but always went to get second opinions and research on WebMD after I saw them...I'd get a new doctor. But, if I did that regardless of who the doctor is or what they say then I'd be in trouble.
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To the OP - I like to practice tunes systematically. I started a thread about it -
Practising Tunes in a Systematic Way
See also -
Quitting Practising Scales in Isolation
... and -
Four Hour Practice Plan Daily for a Tune
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A great piece of advice I got from Christian: practice things in small bursts, say 5 minutes at a time, then move on to something else. Over time, this has really been paying off for me, giving steady incremental improvements. It means I can spend time practice a good few disparate things in the 90 minutes or so I spend per day.
And from Jens Larsen, be sure to leave some time to compose licks rubato. This is the skill that will eventually seep into your ability to improvise on the fly. Also from Jens, be sure to actually play music over the tunes you're working on, in their entirety.
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I think there are no shortcuts... you just have to put in the work. I recall John Scofield's old video-tape I've got, back in the 90's, where he said: "Better learn one tune a year properly than 50 tunes badly" (something along these lines, if I remember). Think about how many hours a day and how many weeks a classical piano student grinds before he is "allowed" to perform just one piece of music. Jazz tunes are possibly simpler but we have to improvise, take solos, comp, make sense of it all and "tell a story" on top of the interpretation of what's written... (ok, I'm now going to read what other members replied to your post). Originally Posted by StringAddict
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I like the iterative deepening approach. For example choose 10 tunes. Focus on one at a time. Move on to another one once you get bored of the current tune. At each iteration, you'll internalize the tune a little deeper. When you revisit a tune, apply whatever you are currently working on to the tune. If you learned a new "trick" or voicing, find a way to use it in the context of the tune. The more a tune is in your ears, the more ease and creativity you'll have with it. Every now and then add a new tune to the set. You can always start with a smaller initial set.
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I haven't done number 3. Something I'm working towards this summer. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
I absolutely do 1 and 2. The first 3-4 tunes you do this with take forever, but it gets faster. I don't need to run 2 anymore, I just learn the progression some way and I can comp in the other positions without practicing them. It just takes time, gigging really helps here, I comp the chorus 6-7 times and inspiration hits and I'll literally do exercises on stage, alternatively comping E and A root chords, or Red Garland patterns with root patterns EEA, AAE. People are focused on the soloist, so as long as I don't trip them up, I'm fulfilling my role.
Overall how do I practice tunes. I'm practicing Charlie Parker heads mostly, so I learn them with a mix of ear and real book out of time. Then after I have the notes in my head I'll play to a metronome set to like 80, really really slow. I break difficult passages into 4 bar chunks and play 2 runs at 80 then 1 run at double time, to push myself.
Breaking things into phrases means I can learn 4 bars in 15 minutes and then move on to something else, or take a break. It wasn't that long ago, 4 bars took me 45 minutes to read off the page, or learn by ear. But I just started learning something, any small line by ear every day. Just learn the lick, and move on, not trying to retain it, the goal was learning by ear. I also got a book of 1001 jazz licks, there all 4 bar licks, and I use that to practice reading. Just read any lick and get it up to speed in 5-10 minutes.
I love talking about practice.
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Originally Posted by StringAddict
Here is a million dollar question.
What songs are you working on right now?
Followed up with, can you post a clip of yourself playing one?
Keep at this and it will get easier. This is what I did, there may be better ways, but this way worked for me. Originally Posted by StringAddict
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I am not sure what you think are the fundamentals. The goal is to play tunes and therefore you have to know chords. I assume you at least know chords or enough to play standards. Then you play the melody and add parts of chords to get a chord melody because then you are working on both chords and the melody. Memorize the melody by playing it over and over adding chords. With this you need to look at the tune and the structure, is it a 12 bar blues or 32 bar tune, ect? Get the chord progression memorized they usually fall into natural patterns.
Learn the tune in one key and find a place on the fingerboard that is sets well with minimal movement. Play it in time use a metronome or simply count. Get the melody in your head and finally you can explore moving the melody up an octave or down and in different keys. To me this is the fundamentals of learning and tune and the guitar at the same time. To me fundamentals are music theory and chord construction. This is a brain process that is different than playing as such.
One thing to do if you have not already done this is to learn the tune, I Got Rhythm because it is the basis of many tunes. There are more than one options for the chords so know the various options and then start playing tunes that use the same chord progression. You can also use this tune as fundamental pay to start improvising. Play through the tune with ARPS of the chords all in 8th notes. Looking at the patterns on the fingerboard to help you manage. Triads and getting the meat of the chord with 3th and 7th.
Doing this you realize then to play Oleo you only need to learn a new melody not the progression or chords. Then you can play Cotten Tail but it usually is done in Ab so that can help you start thinking keys. Tunes are fundamentals to me once you can play basic chord grips maj7, min7, dom7, min7b5.
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It is fundamentally critical to distinguish memorization from internalization. The objects of memorization are specific, fragile, temporary, and applied by deliberate recall, whereas the objects of internalization are general, robust, permanent, effortless, and instantaneous.
How do you recognize internalization? Internalization feels like it is the instrument itself that is learning how to play music. Fastest way to get there is to convince and remind your instrument that all the things it needs to learn are in the songs it wants to be able to play.
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Jams can be frustrating, but don't forget they are just a snapshot in time; unrecorded music is volatile in peoples memory.
Just play without thinking too much about "Is it good enough?"; your mind is then restricting yourself of being able to play freely.
It's not a conquest. Play in the moment and that's good enough!
Don't think afterwards: I should've play this or that. What's done is done. Next time will be different. I don't say: Next time will be better; because what is 'better'?
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Maybe this is cocky -- or naïve -- but, after having played guitar for ~54 years, earned two degrees in music, been a working professional musician for decades, blah blah blah, if I don't have a decent grasp of "the fundamentals" already then there's a bigger problem. Originally Posted by StringAddict
otoh, I never have enough time to learn tunes...in part because, one of the ways I survived being a professional musician was by forgetting what was on the music stand the moment I walked off the bandstand. So if I wanted to hang at jam sessions, I would spend a crapton of time just learning tunes, memorizing the changes and the melodies and the forms and internalizing everything about them so that I could hear/sing/play them intuitively. And then if my playing was a bit sloppy or pedestrian or completely wacky because I haven't spent enough time working on "the fundamentals" well, hopefully folks will forgive me because I'm an old, cocky, naïve musician with a ton of experience...and, ideally, a ton of tunes in my repertoire.
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Learning songs is about playing the music we all love. ?????
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Originally Posted by Bob_Ross
It's not that complicated, house bands play the same songs over and over. OP needs to learn some blues heads Now's the Time, C Jam Blues, Bilies Bounce are common. Also some beginner standards a,la Autumn Leaves, All of Me, Blue Bossa, Satin Doll and Oleo. Maybe also Have you Met Miss Jones. Then OP needs to go to the jam with a pen and paper and write down what other people call and learn the standards of their local scene.
These 10 standards I listed, everyone will know, and knowing just a few is enough to get started at a jam. Be honest with the band "hey, I'm green, can we play Satin Doll at my tempo?" A good host band will embrace newcomers and help them.
Of course, I'm talking about a good host band and a humble newcomer. We all saw the perfect storm at Small's over NYE weekend.
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