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Christian's remark (now way above) about comedy reminded me that Johnny Carson explained one element of his comedy: when he thought of something funny--a connection, a phrase, a pun, an observation, whatever--he would set it aside in memory, and when the appropriate moment came, he would use it. This was a big part of his apparent lightning-quick wit when interacting with his guests. I recognized that technique because I used something like it when I was teaching. I wound up with a mental library of remarks, comparisons, observations, and such that I could draw on during class discussions. Same thing goes for material I use for intros at our folk society concerts--I'm comfortable winging it because I have a library of material and schtick to draw on. "Improvisation" can be (and I suspect usually is) as much about on-the-spot assembly of existing subassemblies as creation ex nihilo.
The working materials of improvisation don't come from some mysterious aetheric realm--they're the result of messing around and paying attention and polishing promising bits. (Don't get me started on optimizing jokes. See Woody Allen on why it's funnier if the spider in the bathtub is the size of a Buick and not some other brand*.) And while I was drafting this, JazzPad's post suggested a version of this approach.
BTW, it might seem like an oversimplification, but a lot of art that works for audiences and artists depends on "the same only different." Familiarity is as important as surprise. I see this in every category of art I encounter.
* I once attempted to teach a unit on the grammar and rhetoric of comedy. It flopped (partly because my 19-year-old students didn't get my examples, even the Groucho-isms), but I learned a lot about how comic writing works.Last edited by RLetson; 03-28-2026 at 01:05 PM.
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03-28-2026 12:45 PM
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There’s a fine line between cliche and idiom.
I mean tbh if you like it it’s probably idiom and if you don’t it’s probably cliche. ;-)
I haven’t thought in terms of cliche for a long time, but it’s amazing how much standard material gets used and reused throughout the history of jazz. It is possible there a reason for that.
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Writing solos on a paper is like learning the grammar of a language; as said earlier, the great Filip Catherine does have scores and scores filled with written arrangements of standards
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I’m always quite amused when someone - such as Stanley Crouch - says Bitches Brew was selling out. It doesn’t sound that way to me.
I suppose it’s possible Miles was trying to sell out but his ears had been so bent out of shape by 60s jazz he had absolutely no idea how to do it.
Or maybe he wasn’t trying to do popular music at all and it was just a change of instrumentation with a similar intent to his earlier stuff.
Bearing in mind pop/rock at that point was quite keen on developing an avant garde of its own. The music certainly crossed over to the ‘heads.’
Either way, disc 2 is a bit more ‘normal.’ I like the Miles electric stuff. It’s been a big influence on me.
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You and me both.
Originally Posted by Christian Miller
I recall an interview with Crouch where he said he tried listening to it with a no change in his consciousness, a small change and a large change etc. but still didn't get it. I feel sorry that he simply couldn't understand it.
Agreed. I got into Miles's early fusion albums before earlier jazz, and it's still among my favourite music. Miles did what the Beatles managed - great art and great commercial success... Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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on April 25,1983 Miles played in Brussels surrounded by two guitarists I had not heard of :Mike Stern and John Scofield .. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Miles did the entire set with his back turned to the audience
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Exactly this. Originally Posted by RLetson
I've said in previous threads that I don't improvise, but that I simply plug and play existing (i.e. pre-written) phrases (some mine, some Django's some Charlie's etc etc). I recall folks saying that I'm indeed correct - I'm not improvising - and I shan't argue with that. I don't think I ever play the same solo twice, as sometimes there are random-ish passing notes, or I drop in a bit of the melody, or (most commonly) I make a mistake and end up with something unintentionally new... but I'm definitely using 90% composed elements.
My question from above still stands though - if someone has pre-written out a hot rippin' be-bop chorus (or several) and plays it with an equally hot and swinging band how does one know if it's jazz or not? Do we have to question the performer first to establish if the solo was composed, partly composed, or totally improvised, and only then declare the piece a jazz piece?
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When I first heard Bitches Brew back in the 70’s it was pretty much Saturn music.
Sounds pretty normal now.
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One time, when I was in jazz school, I had to perform Yesterdays with a band with no skills in soloing.
This tune is hardly bluffable with pentatonic or c-major scale alone. So I wrote a solo and learned it.
They said that it was the closest thing to a real performance that day. I don't remember the grade.
But the real question is - how do you write a solo that would sound like an impro?
I have written many, and they sound way too finished to fool anyone as impro.
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Listening to Bitches Brew right now for the first time since 1970 or so and I still don't much care for it, though I can certainly identify its component influences--already back then, I'd listened to a good deal of "modern" classical music (post-Stravinsky and post-WW2, right up to electronic music) and figured out what was and wasn't to my taste. And "taste" is the operative term here. I can pretty much hear what Miles is up to, but I just don't care to ride along. And FWIW, to "locate" my tastes, I'm indifferent to most "fusion," jazz-rock, and such. It's kinda after my time.
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"Live Evil" was the the first Miles I heard back in the 1970's as a teenager.
His music was revolutionary.
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He also had great album covers! Originally Posted by GuyBoden
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I think part of the problem is that many of us as listeners have become jaded. We have such a huge quantity of material to listen to/sort through. This includes the playing of masters as well as vast hordes of amateurs.
I doubt many jazz fans were as critical of the genre’s then current or future state back in say the early 1960’s - even though jazz was what, 50 years old even at that time.
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You don't, they will sound too polished as you said, I can always tell when someone is playing rehearsed material. Originally Posted by emanresu
We'll let the jazz police verify the labels, but it will usually become clear after more than one performance if a musician is regurgitating his own material. Originally Posted by digger
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It's an academic styled recital rather than being true to the form. While outwardly it has those jazz elements that will appear genuine to a layperson and even may temporarily fool a true jazz player, inwardly you are unable to perform it at the same level without specially pre-written parts. Originally Posted by digger
If the band didn't know you had a pre-written solo, and continued for an extra 32 bars thinking you wanted to keep blowing, you'd be DOA. If it doesn't fly in the blues genre it doesn't really fly in the jazz genre either and tbh it would be truly laughable to have a guy show up to a blues jam with two 12 bar choruses pre-written. On the other hand you could absolutely pre plan solos for what would be a legitimate blues or jazz album but playing exactly the same solo, night after night, without any variation or creative impulse based around the interplay of the band would be musically fraudulent on your part.
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When I want to melt down into a warm puddle of jello, I listen to
This is half-written, half improed.. later. There's a spot where he retracts and restarts a phrase. Meaning he is still doing it from the paper.
I dunno. If that is not jazz then what would you call it?
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Part of my playing-with-others education included intra-band communication, including signalling when a solo is over and to be handed off or to return to the head or to trade fours/eights or whatever. Originally Posted by DawgBone
"Musically fraudulent" is pretty harsh, as is "regurgitating." Sign of limited imagination or technique in an individual, maybe. But I'm still hearing that Romantic valuing of The New or The Creative or The Innovative over other traits. And if improvisation is the defining characteristic of jazz, then what's going on in the charted parts of a big-band arrangement? All those syncopated, harmonically sophisticated, jazz-sounding passages, written to be played as written, all together--some kind of pseudo-jazz? Duke Ellington and Stan Kenton might want to have a word.
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Unless you are gonna make the people you are working with aware that you can't improvise well without charting it first, it's def a fraudulent representation of what is considered a jazz or blues musician now and most serious players aren't going to be interested in working with a person like that. Your pre-charted solos better be something seriously special in that case and be honest, is a person who can't improv on the spot likely to write a solo on the level of the greats or even on the level of someone at the top of their game locally? Unlikely. It's a crutch for someone who hasn't put in the necessary work. Originally Posted by RLetson
I already voiced the Ellington/Kenton question with Miller's moonlight serenade, which is all charted. However, much of the rest of the night even in big band music will still feature improvised solos. Is it jazz, sure. Is the person a jazz musician? Sure, but not a very good one.
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I don’t know that a jazz orchestra is expected to be improvising when they’re together playing their arranged parts, rather the improv begins when the soloist stands up to take his solo. I do believe it’s generally assumed he is improvising at that point. Perhaps, I should say that I’ve always assumed he was improvising. Originally Posted by RLetson
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Honestly this is a pretty good point. Originally Posted by DawgBone
Did Clifford Brown probably plan out some of his recorded solos? I’ll bet he did to some degree.
Did Clifford Brown blow the doors off the place when he hit with Art Blakey? Also yes.
I guess I might leave some space for great solos that aren’t really meant to sound improvised — the pop goes the weasel Basie solo for example? But by and large that’s not really what we’re talking about.
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Also the whole mic drop “if improvisation is jazz then what about all these big bad arrangements” thing is a little silly.
Is improvisation the most important part of jazz? I’d argue probably not. Is it one of the top couple? I’d argue it certainly is.
And the section players in Basie and Ellington bands for sure were improvising. I think anyone who thinks there isn’t much improvising called for in the arranged sections of a big band probably hasn’t heard a lot of good big bands.
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Jazz is swinging music.
You can play a swing version or a non-swing version of a previously written solo.
In professional jazz playing, there are rhythmic nuances that are omitted in the notation. This is a kind of simplification.
Can a feeling and "swinginging" be written down on paper?
If so, they will certainly not be simple eights.
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It is a thing in Gypsy jazz to play a Django solo note for note and often in that genre, a waltz will be pretty much a set piece. But even there, it is expected that you will spice things up and make it your own.
Many years ago, I was playing a concert and was asked by the promoter if a young player could sit in. I won't name the player who has since gone on to tour the world as a highly respected player in the world of Gypsy jazz.
The young man played two tunes with us, one a waltz which was a set piece. The other tune was a Gypsy jazz standard and unknown to me, the younger player executed two choruses that was a note for note transcription of a superb European Gypsy jazz guitarist whom he had studied with. I told him to take another chorus as the first two sounded so good and the young guy embarrassed us both. He was not able to make the changes and compose a solo of his own on the spot.
It is probably good to be able to improvise if you are going to play out unless your limitations are agreed to in advance.
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The point about big-band playing is that a performance doesn't start "being jazz" only when there's an improvised solo--a composed and arranged Ellington or Basie or Kenton piece is jazz all the way through. Which means that improvisation is not the sole factor that makes a listener say, "That's jazz." As other posts have pointed out, there are other characteristics, particularly rhythm (this is, after all, a music rooted in African-American traditions) and various harmonic adventures, along with improvisation.
Historically, jazz is a way of treating a melody. Listen to the 1927 Roger Wolfe Kahn version of "I Can't Believe that You're in Love with Me"--it's a perky foxtrot and pretty square. Then fast-forward to the late 30s/40s and listen to Billie or Ella or Anita O'Day swingify it--or Django with Eddie South (sounds like some improv going on there--or at least lots of variation). Actually, Armstrong had already jazzed it up in 1930. You can keep going right on, down to Duke Robillard (from whose recording I learned it) or Catherine Russell.
In fact, the phrase "jazzing it up" tells me something about how jazz is received and generated.
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I continually practice lines/phrases that musically fit over common Jazz progressions.
These lines/phrases then subconsciously or even consciously appear in my improv soloing.
Perhaps, these can be considered as partly precomposed solos?
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