If I write out my solo, am I playing jazz?

[RLetson]

About Kern: I had a kind of a shock of recognition when I was sitting in with the jazz group and noticed how many of the standards that were also jazz standards were Kern compositions. And as I played through them, I could see why--gorgeous tunes, of course, but with lots of interesting and surprising harmonic turns.

[Christian Miller]

About Kern: I had a kind of a shock of recognition when I was sitting in with the jazz group and noticed how many of the standards that were also jazz standards were Kern compositions. And as I played through them, I could see why--gorgeous tunes, of course, but with lots of interesting and surprising harmonic turns.

It’s an interesting one. Iverson rates him above Gershwin.


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[charlieparker]

If you have a solo written down on paper and you do a rehearsal with a band, you play the same solo over and over again.
This is not jazz.
Often on the albums of jazz masters there are so-called takes.It is easy to notice that apart from playing the theme of the composition, the solos are different.
This is the greatness of those musicians who play jazz.

I disagree, Kris. This is too dogmatic. It might not be what you like and if that is all you can do you probably aren't a pro, but some relatively well known players do essentially this. It's still Jazz to me.

[kris]

I disagree, Kris. This is too dogmatic. It might not be what you like and if that is all you can do you probably aren't a pro, but some relatively well known players do essentially this. It's still Jazz to me.

I have participated in many jazz workshops and I know what professionals do.
Perhaps writing solos earlier has a didactic sense, but that is not the goal.
Jazz is a living creative art.
Mutual inspiration on stage is one of the most important features of this music.

[pamosmusic]

I have participated in many jazz workshops and I know what professionals do.
Perhaps writing solos earlier has a didactic sense, but that is not the goal.
Jazz is a living creative art.
Mutual inspiration on stage is one of the most important features of this music.

Well, if you’ve participated in many jazz workshops …

[Aiq]

Jerry Garcia was named after Jerome Kern.

[befiddled]

If you have a solo written down on paper and you do a rehearsal with a band, you play the same solo over and over again.
This is not jazz.
Often on the albums of jazz masters there are so-called takes.It is easy to notice that apart from playing the theme of the composition, the solos are different.
This is the greatness of those musicians who play jazz.

This is a good point and shows what was/is expected of the professional recording artist playing jazz. All of us have listened to those alternate takes. One gets the sense that the player could do as many as necessary. Some are more capable than others.

[charlieparker]

I have participated in many jazz workshops and I know what professionals do.
Perhaps writing solos earlier has a didactic sense, but that is not the goal.
Jazz is a living creative art.
Mutual inspiration on stage is one of the most important features of this music.

From an interview with Wes, Wes Montgomery: Accidental Genius of the Electric Guitar – Guitar-Muse.com

Armed with his new Gibson L5-CES, Wes sat for hours learning to play Charlie Christian’s solos note for note from recordings. He became such a skilled mimic of Christian’s work that one of Christian’s former bandmates, vibraphonist Lionel Hampton, eventually hired Wes to play those solos in live shows.

At first, those cover tunes were all Wes knew how to play. Within a few months of buying his first guitar, though, Wes caught the attention of a local club owner and found himself billed as a featured performer. The crowd loved him.

“One day I got a hand so big they wouldn’t let me off the stage. But I couldn’t play nothing else! It was so embarrassing, so I said I’ve got to go back and start practicing.”

I agree with you that most or almost all pros improvise, but I would say that Wes still playing Jazz at this early stage in his development. We can agree to disagree, though.

[kris]

I was wondering today... what will happen if a musician who wrote down a solo earlier makes a mistake?
What will be the solution to get out of the mistake he made?
Will he stop playing his solo and start all over again?
Will he start improvising to continue his solo?

[starjasmine]

He plays the mistake another three times and people comment on his "genius."

[digger]

I suspect any player capable of composing and memorizing a single hot solo would be capable of composing and memorizing many. So they wouldn't have to "give the game away" by repeating the same solo on several choruses / takes / gigs, they would simple choose a different composed solo. Furthermore, I suspect they would easily be able to play the first half of one and the second half of another, further disguising the fact they're not improvising. Chop the composed solos into eight bar - or four, or two bar - segments that you can mix and match and the disguise would become even greater. Add in some pre-composed ii-Vs and maybe some swinging arpeggios that you have also composed earlier, possibly a cheeky quote or two (and, God forbid, even a fragment of the melody) and the impression of improvising may be very good indeed.

[kris]

I suspect any player capable of composing and memorizing a single hot solo would be capable of composing and memorizing many. So they wouldn't have to "give the game away" by repeating the same solo on several choruses / takes / gigs, they would simple choose a different composed solo. Furthermore, I suspect they would easily be able to play the first half of one and the second half of another, further disguising the fact they're not improvising. Chop the composed solos into eight bar - or four, or two bar - segments that you can mix and match and the disguise would become even greater. Add in some pre-composed ii-Vs and maybe some swinging arpeggios that you have also composed earlier, possibly a cheeky quote or two (and, God forbid, even a fragment of the melody) and the impression of improvising may be very good indeed.

Well, I guess that"s what improvisation is all about.
Skillful use of the language of jazz.
You are trying to figure out the means you have learned before.
By playing with good musicians, you inspire each other and are ready for a musical conversation.

[Christian Miller]

He plays the mistake another three times and people comment on his "genius."

Never worked for me, but I'm not very cool.

[kris]

Never worked for me, but I'm not very cool.

Maybe you are not making enough mistakes?

[Christian Miller]

Maybe you are not making enough mistakes?

I don’t think that’s the issue


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[orri]

I am late to the thread...

Let's say I am working on learning English. I get an invitation to a party with English speakers. To prepare for speaking English, I compose and write down a funny story in English. I use a dictionary and other tools, maybe use a few phrases verbatim from native speakers' speech or writing.
Then I practise the story in front of a mirror and learn it by heart, and finally go to the party and tell the funny story I practised.

- Am I speaking English? (I'd say yes)
- Will "listeners" enjoy the story and perceive it as English? (I'd say yes, if the preparation well)
- Am I complacent with my English ability if this is my process every time I speak English at a party? (I am not, but maybe someone else is)
- If an other English speaker chimes in and adds something to enhance my story, will I be able to use that energy to enhance the story further and adapt it to the vibe of the room. (probably not, but possibly).


So IMHO, it is jazz, I think it is a great way to progress and learn and practise, but it is not full proficiency or the final form.

[kris]

I am late to the thread...

Let's say I am working on learning English. I get an invitation to a party with English speakers. To prepare for speaking English, I compose and write down a funny story in English. I use a dictionary and other tools, maybe use a few phrases verbatim from native speakers' speech or writing.
Then I practise the story in front of a mirror and learn it by heart, and finally go to the party and tell the funny story I practised.

- Am I speaking English? (I'd say yes)
- Will "listeners" enjoy the story and perceive it as English? (I'd say yes, if the preparation well)
- Am I complacent with my English ability if this is my process every time I speak English at a party? (I am not, but maybe someone else is)
- If an other English speaker chimes in and adds something to enhance my story, will I be able to use that energy to enhance the story further and adapt it to the vibe of the room. (probably not, but possibly).


So IMHO, it is jazz, I think it is a great way to progress and learn and practise, but it is not full proficiency or the final form.

It makes no sense.
Anyone can learn a language.
At least there are such requirements in the current world.
It is completely different when it comes to learning music and jazz music in particular.
Sense of rhythm, creativity, sense of swing, etc.
Not every person has it.

[equenda]

I am late to the thread...

Let's say I am working on learning English. I get an invitation to a party with English speakers. To prepare for speaking English, I compose and write down a funny story in English. I use a dictionary and other tools, maybe use a few phrases verbatim from native speakers' speech or writing.
Then I practise the story in front of a mirror and learn it by heart, and finally go to the party and tell the funny story I practised.

- Am I speaking English? (I'd say yes)
- Will "listeners" enjoy the story and perceive it as English? (I'd say yes, if the preparation well)
- Am I complacent with my English ability if this is my process every time I speak English at a party? (I am not, but maybe someone else is)
- If an other English speaker chimes in and adds something to enhance my story, will I be able to use that energy to enhance the story further and adapt it to the vibe of the room. (probably not, but possibly).


So IMHO, it is jazz, I think it is a great way to progress and learn and practise, but it is not full proficiency or the final form.

I think you've described exactly what happens when someone starts writing their own solos.
I'll add a personal observation. There are two types of jazz musicians:
1) those who have tried to write and play their own solos,
2) those who have never done so. The latter, almost always, have never written a solo because they simply don't know how.

Do me a small favor: don't mention Wes Montgomery, Jimi Hendrix, George Benson, or Django Reinhardt, because they do NOT belong to the category of normal, common musicians.

One last thing. A friend of mine, a jazz teacher and author of books on jazz, told me that Louis Armstrong's personal notes have been found, featuring some of his early solos written on the staff. I'm not sure about this, but if it were true, all those who maintain that jazz "must" be improvised... from now on, they should keep quiet.

Ettore

[kris]

I think you've described exactly what happens when someone starts writing their own solos.
I'll add a personal observation. There are two types of jazz musicians:
1) those who have tried to write and play their own solos,
2) those who have never done so. The latter, almost always, have never written a solo because they simply don't know how.

Do me a small favor: don't mention Wes Montgomery, Jimi Hendrix, George Benson, or Django Reinhardt, because they do NOT belong to the category of normal, common musicians.

One last thing. A friend of mine, a jazz teacher and author of books on jazz, told me that Louis Armstrong's personal notes have been found, featuring some of his early solos written on the staff. I'm not sure about this, but if it were true, all those who maintain that jazz "must" be improvised... from now on, they should keep quiet.

Ettore

And I"m in the third category. I can write down solos and I can improvise. That"s why I improvise solos because I don"t have time to write them down beforehand.
Why should I do that...?
I read somewhere that Armstrong had a problem with reading notes, he probably had a problem with writing them down.

[orri]

I think you've described exactly what happens when someone starts writing their own solos.

I think the important part of exercise is to compose a solo ahead of time. I think it is about taking it slow and use all the time you want to get in the ideas you want, replacing the ideas you don't like, see it in a bigger perspective as a whole and how it connects together etc etc.
I think whether you write it down on paper is more a matter of preferred workflow, rather than the essence of the exercise.

Do me a small favor: don't mention Wes Montgomery, Jimi Hendrix, George Benson, or Django Reinhardt, because they do NOT belong to the category of normal, common musicians.

I think you could absolutely mention them. Just because they weren't formally trained and didn't rely much on sheet music (not sure about the exact background of every single one of them) doesn't mean that they didn't put in a lot of work to get to the level they got to.

Wes Montgomery learnt numerous Charlie Christian solos note for note. George Benson learnt Charlie Parker solos. I think it is very likely that they at some point composed solos to some extent ahead of time (but I'd guess it's less likely they wrote it down on paper,). They definitely put in a lot of time to develop as musicians.

[kris]

And what about jazz musicians who are blind?
Is it possible to write down notes?
I knew a brilliant jazz musician - he played everything by ear.

[pamosmusic]

This thread has gotten remarkably dumb

[orri]

It makes no sense.
Anyone can learn a language.
At least there are such requirements in the current world.
It is completely different when it comes to learning music and jazz music in particular.
Sense of rhythm, creativity, sense of swing, etc.
Not every person has it.

That's seems unrelated to the point I was trying to make?

It was just parallel metaphor, where I claimed that just like a person can speak English, convey a meaning, and entertain others, by practising in advance and planning ahead what they are going to say without being properly fluent, a musician can also play jazz by practising in advance what they want to play, before they are fluent in jazz.


But I also disagree with the notion that we are either born with it or we will never have it.
I think we are definitely born different, but I think good teacher can teach what to listen for and teach how to improve step by step and get to a pretty high level to anyone who has the passion and perseverance.
(but some have a much easier path, and can learn much more and faster without a teacher).

[digger]

What's this entertaining others that you speak of?

[Christian Miller]

I’ve suffered for my art, now it’s your turn


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