If I write out my solo, am I playing jazz?

[TF]

This topic comes up once in a while. If I write out and memorize a ripping bebop solo on "Autumn Leaves", and play it with the jazz combo, am I playing jazz? If improvising is the requirement, obviously not. The thing is, I can write out a better solo than I can improvise on the fly. So... - ?

[rpjazzguitar]

With no universal agreement about what jazz is, it's hard to say.

I've read that some famous jazz players would play the same solo on different nights.

OTOH, jazz is about interaction and creation on the fly (my view, anyway). From that point of view, your solo should be responsive to what is happening in the band right then. But if it's a good sounding solo, nobody is likely to complain.

[AllanAllen]

The answer doesn't matter.

Keep doing what makes you sound good and eventually you'll be able to improvise better.

[AllanAllen]

OTOH, jazz is about interaction and creation on the fly (my view, anyway). From that point of view, your solo should be responsive to what is happening in the band right then.

Nitpicking to follow:

In my opinion, this is backwards. The band comping the soloist should be the ones responding to the what's happening. If the soloist goes mellow, they band needs to follow.

It's called comping (accompaniment) for a reason. The goal is to make the soloist sound better, not to play a chord melody guitar piece over the solo.

[mr. beaumont]

So write out 3 solos, then play the parts of each you feel like in the moment.

Re: comping-- smaller the group, the more conversational and interactive that is, but as a general rule, soloist is in charge.

[Mick-7]

This topic comes up once in a while. If I write out and memorize a ripping bebop solo on "Autumn Leaves", and play it with the jazz combo, am I playing jazz? If improvising is the requirement, obviously not. The thing is, I can write out a better solo than I can improvise on the fly. So... - ?

I think that most people learn to improvise by collecting and practicing phrases they like. You need to do that to internalize the jazz vocabulary. If you stopped there, i.e., only composed solos, never transcended the practice and learned to improvise in real time, I'd say you don't deserve the title of jazz musician, but not everyone wants to go there.

[kris]

This topic comes up once in a while. If I write out and memorize a ripping bebop solo on "Autumn Leaves", and play it with the jazz combo, am I playing jazz? If improvising is the requirement, obviously not. The thing is, I can write out a better solo than I can improvise on the fly. So... - ?

Jazz is music that is created live.
Often musicians inspire each other on stage and unforeseen things are created.
Even the reactions of the intelligent audience motivate musicians... and then real jazz is created.
I personally practice a lot to play good solos.
Jazz is a creative play, not a reproductive one.

[James W]

So write out 3 solos, then play the parts of each you feel like in the moment.

This.

Also get into the habit of varying solos or licks you write down.

[Strat-itis]

Composing solos or parts of solos or cells is part of jazz, so yes.

While the complete package of jazz is to be able to improv successfully.

[John A.]

I would say that if you only play pre-composed solos because you can't improvise, you're not really playing jazz (yet, anyway). But if you play, say, one tune with a pre-composed solo for a more intentional/artistic reason, while the rest of your solos are improvised I'd say you're playing jazz. I'd also say that I have a fairly expansive definition of "improvised", e.g., if you play the same basic thing on a certain tune but vary it or ornament or push and pull at the phrasing a bit differently so that it doesn't always seem like exactly the same thing that's a kind of improvisation. Ditto for mixing and matching somewhat-worked-out phrases (which is what an awful lot of playing boils down to). So if that's what you're doing I'd say, sure, you're playing jazz.

[Bflat233]

Interesting question for me as a hobbyist and lifelong student ... I appreciate the question and the answers flowing.

I like to transcribe, write down, and memorize solos that inspire me. Tal Farlow on Tenderly, Jim Hall on Things Ain't What They Used To Be are the most recent. I play them alone in my studio with the recording or with a backing track I have made. So I am thinking about comping, too.

With a band I hope this work will influence my lines. But I don't playback more than one chorus. Even then I figure that is another important way to practice. I play with a horn section and those cats surprise and delight each other doing the same thing.

More recently I've come to the conclusion that it's a good idea to have a plan for getting started in the tune and then let the music lead me from there. Referring back to the melody is good approach.

[ragman1]

If I write out my solo, am I playing jazz?

If it is jazz, yes. But it's not improvised. Does that matter? Not much. Music's an entertainment. If it feels good for the audience, it's good.

[Sam Sherry]

The protean jazz artist Herbie Hancock told the Portland Press-Herald in October, 2003: "Risk is what moves all of us forward. If you’re playing in your comfort zone, that ain’t jazz.”

@TF, I think there's your best answer. It's more important to play in the moment than it is to 'play well.' If I look for satisfaction from 'playing well' I will never find satisfaction. I will never play as well as the people I listen to. I honor them and everybody else by trying anyway.


Or turn to the seminal author and futurist William Gibson: "{T]echnique becomes the enemy. The thing that was keeping me from doing something new was how comfortable I'd gotten doing something I already know how to do."


I would hate to think that people miss out on the joy of trying by choosing to dwell on stuff that sounded ok somewhere else.
Don't sell yourself short!

[rpjazzguitar]

I agree that the soloist sets the scene. But, the rest of the band is still involved. So, for example, if the drummer plays a particular complementary rhythm, the soloist can do something with it. And, the drummer can respond to that and so on. Same for every other player in the band. The soloist still is a kind of director, but the band doesn't become a backing track.

[buduranus2]

Why can't it just be what it is without putting a label on it or making a value judgment?

[kris]

I don"t know where this discussion is going.
One thing I know.if I play a jazz standard – I play a written theme and then improvise.
There are probably a thousand books on the subject of : How to Play Jazz?
The arrangements often include so-called improvised choruses and the musicians play in unison a previously written solo.
It is then like an element of the arrangement.
Playing written solos or playing transcriptions of solos is just one of the elements for learning improvisation in jazz.
Every improviser in jazz is a live creator.
If a jazz musician played a solo written earlier, he would play the same thing over and over again, and jazz music would be deprived of the most important feature – improvisation.Jazz music gives you the freedom to choose the notes when playing live.One day I play this way and the next day I play differently.

[DawgBone]

The protean jazz artist Herbie Hancock told the Portland Press-Herald in October, 2003: "Risk is what moves all of us forward. If you’re playing in your comfort zone, that ain’t jazz.”

That's a great quote and one I live by though sometimes I think choosing to live dangerously when soloing has cost me. One night you fly high, the next you can crash and burn, and there is no rhyme or reason behind why.

Granted, as I've improved there isn't real bad crash and burns in the truest sense but, being my own worst critic, I walk away from a song, or a night, pissed off at myself and think "dude you just suck you don't belong in this business playing like this after decades" and I go home disgusted or even worse lose confidence mid-set because of a stumble or two. On the other hand there are nights when I feel like "you can't touch this" lol and it's impossible for me to fumble the ball and I go home and can't sleep thinking wow I really got this now. It's annoying that there is rarely a happy medium and there are often wild swings in quality night to night. Maybe it's just me....

Meanwhile I see most guys in the blues realm (and jazz) playing it relatively safe night after night. Laying back, not risking much at all. Maybe I'm doing it wrong but if I am, I guess it's too late to shift gears.

[Skip Ellis]

So what do you call a guitarist who plays arrangements - a bad musician? Personally, I'm a melody fan and don't like to get too far away from it and, I agree, I'm not a 'jazz' musician and don't really have much desire to be one but I do use some 'jazz' chords in my playing. One way I measure success in my playing is finishing a tune and knowing, in my mind, that I played it right. Maybe this comes from a lot of years playing musical theater where it has to be 'right', every tune, every night - this gives me satisfaction that I don't get when playing on stage with a bunch of people I don't know and who don't know each other - instant train wreck. I've played in some good bands over the years and we never, ever allowed set ins because we didn't now what they were going to do and they didn't know our arrangements - it ends up being misery for everyone, including the audience. I guess that's why I like to play chord melody by myself - I'm just not a social person and I can control things which I couldn't do at a jam session. I've always been one to play for my audience, not entertain myself. Sorry for the rant......

[ragman1]

Playing stuff you know isn't the same as keeping safe in a comfort zone, it's just playing stuff you know. Nothing wrong with that. I mean, how are you going to play stuff you don't know? That's not creative risk, that's sheer lunacy.

Then because you know it, you're free to play with some abandon. That's what happens in a creative band. they know each other, they know the tunes, they can fly.

[GuyBoden]

Remembering solos I've prewritten would be my greatest problem.

[John A.]

So what do you call a guitarist who plays arrangements

Johnny Smith?

- a bad musician?

If he plays them badly perhaps, but hopefully he’ll get there eventually.

Personally, I'm a melody fan and don't like to get too far away from it and, I agree, I'm not a 'jazz' musician and don't really have much desire to be one but I do use some 'jazz' chords in my playing.

I don’t think there’s such a thing as a “jazz chord”; there are just chords. I think it helps to think of jazz as a “how” more than a “what” , and jazz harmony as an approach to thinking about and using chords more than any particular static chords.

One way I measure success in my playing is finishing a tune and knowing, in my mind, that I played it right. Maybe this comes from a lot of years playing musical theater where it has to be 'right', every tune, every night - this gives me satisfaction that I don't get when playing on stage with a bunch of people I don't know and who don't know each other - instant train wreck.

One of the things I love about jazz is that you can put together a bunch of people who have never met each other, and they can sound like they’ve played together for years, and it won’t at all be a trainwreck. I experience this as a player and listener all the time

I've played in some good bands over the years and we never, ever allowed set ins because we didn't now what they were going to do and they didn't know our arrangements - it ends up being misery for everyone, including the audience.

With music that depends on arrangements other people are unlikely to know, agreed. But with good jazz players there’s a common repertoire of hundreds of songs and sit-ins often are great.

I guess that's why I like to play chord melody by myself - I'm just not a social person and I can control things which I couldn't do at a jam session. I've always been one to play for my audience, not entertain myself. Sorry for the rant......

I see “playing for myself” and “playing for the audience” as entirely compatible.

[kris]

[Tom Karol]

When I studied with Atilla Zoller he had me write out solos to various tunes, not to use every time I played the song but to fully explore the harmonic structure of it. Now when I play those tunes, I sometimes play an improvised solo on the solo I wrote.

Edit: It's now a few hours after I made this post, but just to clarify, I should have said 'compose' rather than 'write out'. I didn't actually write them down on paper. Anyway ...

[djg]

When I studied with Atilla Zoller he had me write out solos to various tunes, not to use every time I played the song but to fully explore the harmonic structure of it. Now when I play those tunes, I sometime play an improvised solo on the solo I wrote.

philippe catherine had binders full of handwritten stuff over standards.

[Skip Ellis]

Johnny Smith?

I was thinking of him as I wrote this

If he plays them badly perhaps, but hopefully he’ll get there eventually.
agreed

I don’t think there’s such a thing as a “jazz chord”; there are just chords. I think it helps to think of jazz as a “how” more than a “what” , and jazz harmony as an approach to thinking about and using chords more than any particular static chords.

I was almost fired from a band once and chewed out for using 'off' chords (9ths & 13ths). I quit shortly thereafter

One of the things I love about jazz is that you can put together a bunch of people who have never met each other, and they can sound like they’ve played together for years, and it won’t at all be a trainwreck. I experience this as a player and listener all the time

True with jazz, maybe, because the only 'arrangement' is the head and people tend to know those. I understand that this is a 'jazz' forum


With music that depends on arrangements other people are unlikely to know, agreed. But with good jazz players there’s a common repertoire of hundreds of songs and sit-ins often are .....

Agreed, assuming you live in an area with a pool of jazz musicians, good or otherwise and an audience that appreciates the music. In my area, unfortunately, we have electric blues and tiki bar (Jimmy Buffett) music for our yearly tourist influx - not even any country anymore. There's a clique-ish jazz society in a nearby town but they're not well known. The retired (guitarist) head of the jazz studies dept at the local college is now playing weddings and there's one guy doing smooth jazz with backing tracks - that's about it. Our biggest market venue-wise is assisted living facilities


I see “playing for myself” and “playing for the audience” as entirely compatible.

I tend to disagree - I can't play for myself. If I'm not gigging or getting ready for a gig, I don't play. I listen to a lot of fingerstyle acoustic players (some extremely good) who are content to sit at home and play to the walls (or dog or whatever) and never think of going out and playing for an audience - it's just not on their radar and never will be. To me, playing for oneself is a selfish endeavor - this kinda describes jazz, in a way - it's music for the player and if an audience shows up, that's fine, but not necessarily a requirement. I prefer playing to adoring crowds - getting ready to play pedal steel in a 6 week run of a theater production this summer - my happy place!