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I've been listening to the 1958 "The Duke Plays Ellington" recording since 1959 or so. I don't find it boring. Is there something wrong with me? Of course, that album is heavily improvisatory, so maybe that wove some aesthetic-magical spell. About the same time, I first heard the expanded "Sing, Sing, Sing," which is both highly arranged and, for the solos, improvised. But it's the recording of a single, particular performance I've been listening to all these decades. What's going on here? (Actually, I know exactly what's going on. Those are preservations of terrific performances that hold up as well as any Haydn quartet performances--which themselves are not xerox copies of their scores.)
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03-25-2026 03:04 PM
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Creative genius can make the commonplace fascinating.... or you may just be a boring person.
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Thread is getting pedantic again lol. I'll reiteraterate:
No, it is not jazz with only composed solos. Improv is a prerequisite for jazz.
While if you can improv, interspersing composition is great.
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A good definition of improvisation is going to be impossible upon which to settle.
At one extreme there are proposed definitions that are so strict about the aspects of the novelty, unplanned, absolutely spontaneous, never been executed before that about the only playing that would qualify is if someone handed you a type of instrument on stage, by surprise, an instrument of a type you've never even touched before, and then sitting in and soloing for a few tunes (like someone pulling out a French horn and passing it to me for the next set). Yes, all the sounds I might produce would be absolutely improvisational, a messy mass of incompetence with perhaps a few brief instants of occasionally accidentally sounding only a bit "outside"...
The idea of "new" won't get defined either. Every single note you play you've played a very large number of times before, and every pair of notes, and series of three notes, etc. What is the threshold for how many notes before we may be improvising? Same with rhythms, same with harmonies, tempos, and styles... if improvisation is defined as what's played there must be a level of resolution.
If the idea is to play truly unique new stuff that you have not played before, doesn't that lead to the conclusion that listening to a lot of Jazz is a bad thing? Transcribing is bad, sheet music is bad, and learning and developing solo ideas when practicing only results in identifying a whole bunch of stuff that now you've played it may not be used in performance as legit improvisation. Really?
If what is improvisation is defined more along the lines of what the musician is doing in their mind, there is no comparative quality, say between two who play the same thing, one from memory and the other made up on the spot.
Maybe it is best to leave improvisation as undefined with a nice big foggy boundary. The important thing is to enjoy doing it and getting better at it... just feeling the increasing density gradient of the fog as a positive indication of progress.
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Dear sweet Lord Jesus.
Originally Posted by pauln
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YES. Originally Posted by TF
More jazz greats composed their solos than you might think. Joe Henderson was well known for this, for example. George Coleman famously lost the Miles gig for practicing his solos... But it was common practice.
For instance, Lee Konitz said this about James Moody:
"James Moody is a very good example of this prepared playing - playing what he knows. I never really enjoyed listening to him that much, though last time I heard him, at a Charlie Parker concert in New York, I was very impressed that this 75-year-old man was playing so well. But what he played is basically very set, it's like he's actually playing exercises sometimes, it's so obvious. He was playing the same things that I've heard him play over and over again. But he does it very well, and with a sense of humour in between, everything is very enjoyable to listen to. He even told a great joke that he's been telling for 40 years! That is a true professional performance ....James Moody is a hard practiser and he learns his things. And he knows how to deliver his punch when he's out there. This isn't meant to be a criticism of him, because I respect him for doing what he can do very well. I'm not saying he should be doing something else, I'm just trying to make a point that there is something else to be done, and then you make your choice whether you want to do it. I can't play the way Moody does, playing a finished product, as good as you can come up with, for the paying audience."
OTOH as one of my teachers pointed out, most working bands tend to crystallise their performances over the course of a tour. By the end there's less improvisation than at the start.
But not everyone appreciates that way of doing things. Konitz felt that improvisation was more important to him than swing, for example. Rest of the interview here.
Conversations on the Improviser's Art
These days Konitz's take (and the whole Tristano school's improvisation centred philosophy) represents a common attitude in jazz education.
OTOH Barry Harris suggested soloists write out their first chorus on a given tune. I've never done it, but I can see the value. So if you need your idea sanctioned by one of the Greats - there you go. Chick Corea recommended the same thing.
In the heat of the moment, you might end up improvising anyway haha. I'm not great at learning music, it's usually easier for me to make it up.
But - that said, I think improvisation has become something of a 'false idol' in jazz education. We start by giving students raw materials like scales on tunes and telling them to 'have at it.' I think it's more important to learn to sound good. Not a popular or fashionable opinion, but well supported in the accounts of how many of my favourite players learned. The current fixation on improvisation above all is actually quite ahistorical. And I say that as a pretty improvisational player myself.
So go for it IMO. But you may also get grief for it as well- people get really snotty about this type of thing (usually music college kids). I do think it's important to work on your improvisation even if you choose not to do when you can. You aren't always playing on your terms, and that's when improvisational skills become necessary.But how you go about your own music to do with you as a person and what you enjoy about music. There's no right or wrong per se.
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Hey, I resemble that remark. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
And even when I do learn someone else's music, I take liberties with it in any case.
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TL;DR Jazz used to be more showbiz. Rehearsing the show is a showbiz thing to do.
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Well they do say no battle plan survives contact with the rhythm section. Or something. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
Hey, I resemble that remark.
And even when I do learn someone else's music, I take liberties with it in any case.
Yes, preparing something does not preclude improvising. In fact, it can help because it provides a solid basis for improvisation.
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When listening to the Allman Brothers boots in the six months leading up to Live at Fillmore East one can trace a definite developmental arc. Play something that sounds good? Play it again maybe.
Davis said if someone wants to play music they will play cliches.
Pat Martino said if you play something that people react to play it again next time.
Stephen Jay Gould might say mutation and adaptation…slow evolution.
I have limited talent so I wouldn’t remember it during the chaos but in the woodshed
I practice/plan something.
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Is Moonlight Serenade jazz since it doesn't have solos? Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Composition is part of jazz: Solo ideas, arrangements, through-composed big band.
However not being able to improv is not part of jazz.
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I mean, here's a hipper example Originally Posted by DawgBone
the clarinet solo is very much a variation on a set melody
Or Weather Report, (who also played Rockin' in Rhythm?)
Very much a composition - Jaco's most famous solo is a set piece.
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I have never heard that, but it bears some truth. Whatever you think you might play needs to be flexible to work with the rhythm section. If you just rigidly play what you have worked out, it will often sound very stilted. And with lesser players, you hear this. Sometimes I will hear a jazz band playing in a restaurant (probably for tips and dinner) and it sounds like every member of the band is doing their own thing without blending into the other players sound and it doesn't line up well. In fact, I have been hired to play with these sorts of players and there isn't much you can do. You can groove with any one of them, but the others still are not with you. In that scenario, I try and groove with the bass player hoping the other guys will join the groove, but alas, they usually lack the ears and skill to do so. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Whenever I have been hired to play with cats that I have never played with, I try and do a lot of listening to figure out how I can best fit in. If I hear a really busy piano player, I do not try to comp over him and I keep my solos pretty diatonic so that nothing I play will sound bad over the substitutions that he is playing. Conversely, if the rhythm section is super simple harmonically, I will spice it up with tri-tone subs, minor over major, side slipping etc.
Usually, I have things figured out after a few choruses in the first tune. Develop big ears, make the rest of the cats sound good and you will get hired. At least that is how it worked out for me. YMMV
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Were Chet Atkins, Jerry Reed, Doc Watson, Neil Levang, Buddy Merrill, The Shadows, The Ventures boring and bad musicians? I don't think so. Originally Posted by Mick-7
The same way every time? = Boring.
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Depends on who you talk to I guess, whether they are boring or not is a matter of opinion (Chet Atkins usually bores me). However, they weren't playing jazz, which is the topic of this conversation. I saw Doc Watson in concert and he did improvise, never saw any of the others you mentioned so can't say if they played on auto-pilot or not. Originally Posted by Skip Ellis
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"Boring"... this is a very broad term.It can also be a very subjective term.
Boring - can apply to any type of music.
If someone listens to the same tune over and over again, it can become boring after a whileLast edited by kris; 03-26-2026 at 10:21 AM.
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Shut up ‘n play yer axe : Frank Zappa,1981 Originally Posted by Mick-7
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One of the big problems with the perspective musicians is the sort of tacit assumption that the audience are mind readers.
Your process is mostly of interest to you
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This thread is very interesting, and I thank everyone.
I too, after a long time spent, have started writing my own melodic lines and then my own solos. I've learned a lot and found new melodic solutions that I would never have found because, unfortunately, I very rarely play with other musicians.
Of course, I've noticed that during a real performance, I remember little, and poorly, of what I'd written... but something sticks in my head and in my hands!
I believe there are many paths to becoming a good jazz musician, but I'm convinced that if a jazz musician has NEVER written a solo (even a single chorus) on paper... then something is wrong.
In my opinion, it's ESSENTIAL to know how to write what you play and to play (if necessary) what you write on paper.
I have a piece of advice for those of us who, like me, write our own solos: play them and say you improvised. 99.99% of people will believe you.
Ettore
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I never wrote my own solo. Originally Posted by equenda
This thread is very interesting, and I thank everyone.
I too, after a long time spent, have started writing my own melodic lines and then my own solos. I've learned a lot and found new melodic solutions that I would never have found because, unfortunately, I very rarely play with other musicians.
Of course, I've noticed that during a real performance, I remember little, and poorly, of what I'd written... but something sticks in my head and in my hands!
I believe there are many paths to becoming a good jazz musician, but I'm convinced that if a jazz musician has NEVER written a solo (even a single chorus) on paper... then something is wrong.
In my opinion, it's ESSENTIAL to know how to write what you play and to play (if necessary) what you write on paper.
I have a piece of advice for those of us who, like me, write our own solos: play them and say you improvised. 99.99% of people will believe you.
Ettore
This is nonsense - I have to learn from my solo..?.
When it comes to learning, I learned a lot from other musicians.
Recordings of jazz giants listened to over and over again, or playing transcribed solos by other musicians-I gained jazz musical knowledge from this.
I will add a few dozen jazz books and educational videos.
When it comes to writing solos, I just record them.
I check the phrasing in this way and whether I like everything to a reasonable extent.
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I dunno, Julian Lage said he learned from transcribing his own stuff. But then, he is Julian Lage haha. Originally Posted by kris
I never wrote my own solo.
This is nonsense - I have to learn from my solo..?.
When it comes to learning, I learned a lot from other musicians.
Recordings of jazz giants listened to over and over again, or playing transcribed solos by other musicians-I gained jazz musical knowledge from this.
I will add a few dozen jazz books and educational videos.
When it comes to writing solos, I just record them.
I check the phrasing in this way and whether I like everything to a reasonable extent.
Sometimes I do (machine assisted) transcription of my own stuff for videos. It's quite interesting what comes out - not always what I expect to see.
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I wouldn't worry about something being jazz or not, and I don't think listeners really care if a solo is written or improvised. I think they'd want you to connect with them emotionally and viscerally first. I'm paraphrasing here but I think Branford Marsalis once said something along the lines of, hey, instead of playing lines and all that complicated stuff, try playing the melody with a good beat with a great sound because sound is the thing that moves audiences emotionally.
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Just a few more random thoughts:
- Someone said (I don't know who): " If you can sing it, you can play it; if you can't sing it, you probably shouldn't play it."
- Duke Ellington said: "There's only three kinds of music - good, bad, and indifferent."
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Ok, but I guess he doesn"t write solo on paper first and then plays what he wrote...:-) Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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