Intuition vs Logical/Theory ??

[Basshead]

Hey fellas, someone told me the other day that they think Im a great player/musician cause I compose my own flamenco and blues/jazzy stuff where I use tons of different concepts from quartal, tritone, sustitutions, etc...triad pairs, scales, blah blah...I know a lot about theory cause Im a nerd and I like learning stuff from youtube, or forums like this one...long story short, a couple of friends told me recently that Im not a intuition musician, that Im more logical and that I play great because I practice a lot, not because my talent...and I dont believe in talent much, I always remember Pat Metheny saying that he met a lot of people like that in his life and he always kept learning new stuff and seeing how those super talented guys dont evolve at all in 10 years or quit.

Hope this makes sense, what are your thoughts?

[joe2758]

Probably not an either/or type of thing. You learn in that way, but it's not possible you don't have some degree of talent. And talented people who can play had to learn to at least some degree. And there's an entire gray area of in between. Actually it's all in between. Some people with almost only talent fail (Like PM is saying), and someone with almost no talent will also only get so far. Those are extreme cases and rare

[AllanAllen]

If you play things off the top of your head its intuitive. If you know the names of what you're doing that's a bonus. Don't let someone with a small bag of tricks convince you that you are less of a musician because you have a bigger bag of tricks.

[Christian Miller]

If it isn’t made intuitive one way or another it won’t come out on a gig.


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[Dean_G]

Everybody has different and varied strengths, and those could be considered talents. Like you're really logical apparently and can digest theories etc. That's a talent you have. Someone else has to work harder at that perhaps. That's an aspect of who you are, and what comes out of that musically is part of your self expression. Maybe another player relies on their ear primarily. I don't know if that's intuitive necessarily, just a different learning style. I view theory as a tool. It can describe how to recreate something, like a recipe, or can help one explore new extended ideas.

[RLetson]

Given that about the only activities we're born with are crying, eating, excreting, and generating the social smile (so the exhausted parents don't just put us outside the cave when we excrete and cry all night), everything else is learned.

I'd say that "talent" is the measure of how quickly and well we learn that "everything else." Even the ability to absorb and deploy systems and rule-sets is a talent, and intuition would be an internal sense of where to go next, what might be interesting to explore, what things might fit together. The rules might say X but intuition might say, "Why not try Y instead?" And the rules might help make Y behave itself once it's been intuited.

[pawlowski6132]

Hey fellas, someone told me the other day that they think Im a great player/musician cause I compose my own flamenco and blues/jazzy stuff where I use tons of different concepts from quartal, tritone, sustitutions, etc...triad pairs, scales, blah blah...I know a lot about theory cause Im a nerd and I like learning stuff from youtube, or forums like this one...long story short, a couple of friends told me recently that Im not a intuition musician, that Im more logical and that I play great because I practice a lot, not because my talent...and I dont believe in talent much, I always remember Pat Metheny saying that he met a lot of people like that in his life and he always kept learning new stuff and seeing how those super talented guys dont evolve at all in 10 years or quit.

Hope this makes sense, what are your thoughts?

nobody that talks like that can be a real jazz artist, you sound like a predictable compute, all theory, no heart and soul

[pamosmusic]

nobody that talks like that can be a real jazz artist, you sound like a predictable compute, all theory, no heart and soul

Tell that to John Coltrane

[pamosmusic]

If you play things off the top of your head its intuitive. If you know the names of what you're doing that's a bonus. Don't let someone with a small bag of tricks convince you that you are less of a musician because you have a bigger bag of tricks.

+1

If it isn’t made intuitive one way or another it won’t come out on a gig.

and +2

If it comes out when you write and/or improvise, then who cares how it got there.

[pawlowski6132]

Tell that to John Coltrane

You tell him

[pawlowski6132]

Maybe you could teach us what a real jazz artist should sound like. Maybe we could refer to some of your playing to learn real jazz artistry:

youtube.com/@pawlowski6132

Could you pick one video out of the 25 videos you have playing acoustic guitar alone, use that as teaching material, and demonstrate said artistry? You seem to know a lot that we don't know about. Perhaps you could lift some of us to your level so that the next time we talk about stuff and/or post stuff, we'll do better, and you'll be less triggered or angry.

Read my posts. It's all there.

[pamosmusic]

This feels like it's going to be productive.

[pawlowski6132]

You mean like this one, where you said you mostly keep to the gear forum, where you complained about members' ignorance, and where you talked about Dunning-Kruger effect?

Or did you have some other post in mind?

They're all good. That one especially.

[pawlowski6132]

This feels like it's going to be productive.

Right??

So easy to push Brent's buttons. I can wind him like a top.

[pawlowski6132]

You're right. Let's get back to OP.



Everyone has/uses a bit of both. You can think of the logical and the intuitive as a spectrum. Some use one more than the other. I will say that you can make the logical stuff into intuitive stuff by repeated listens, drills, and practices.

Thank you guitar Yoda.

[pamosmusic]

Right??

So easy to push Brent's buttons. I can wind him like a top.

Actually seems like your buttons get pushed pretty on the reg, but sure.

[pawlowski6132]

Actually seems like your buttons get pushed pretty on the reg, but sure.

Nope

[pamosmusic]

Nope

oh. My bad.

[pawlowski6132]

oh. My bad.

All good

[Basshead]

Maybe some people confuse having a good ear for simple pop changes with intuition?

[pamosmusic]

Maybe some people confuse having a good ear for simple pop changes with intuition?

I would imagine that a layperson would pretty easily confuse intuition and ear.

I have a pretty good ear but it is not naturally good. A lot of late nights at a piano in college on that one. And it slips if I don’t work on it.

[joe2758]

i fear the man who practices 1 kick 1,000 times or whatever

[joe2758]

Maybe you could teach us what a real jazz artist should sound like. Maybe we could refer to some of your playing to learn real jazz artistry:

youtube.com/@pawlowski6132

Could you pick one video out of the 25 videos you have playing acoustic guitar alone, use that as teaching material, and demonstrate said artistry? You seem to know a lot that we don't know about. Perhaps you could lift some of us to your level so that the next time we talk about stuff and/or post stuff, we'll do better, and you'll be less triggered or angry.

His playing isn't bad imo. Does talk out his a$$ tho. bit of a walley maybe, bit of a muppet (all in good fun)

[joe2758]

Lol let's make 'muppet' a thing again

i like that word

right?!

[mr. beaumont]

Takes a lot of thinking to get to the point of where you don't have to think