Intuition vs Logical/Theory ??

[rpjazzguitar]

So lets say I want to develop my musical intuition like Wes did, I cant imagine Wes singing intervals or triads, maybe he did, those guys did not have all the info and ear training programs we got these days so what do you think they did to get that level of musicality? or is all about talent and I just better quit.

One thing that Wes reported was that he learned CC solos note for note.

He also mentioned going to movies and trying to figure out the chord changes in the soundtracks.

Obviously, this only scratches the surface.

[DawgBone]

One thing that Wes reported was that he learned CC solos note for note.

He also mentioned going to movies and trying to figure out the chord changes in the soundtracks.

Obviously, this only scratches the surface.

I'm pretty convinced that guys doing self transcribing really built big skills. You can buy a transcription book for damn near anything today but back then I don't think they were very common and you had to figure it out by yourself. I was listening to a Joe Henderson lecture yesterday, I think it was Joe Henderson, and he was talking about how his university instructors thought he had perfect pitch cause he said he had "transcribed about ten million notes" before he ever went to university.

[Christian Miller]

So lets say I want to develop my musical intuition like Wes did, I cant imagine Wes singing intervals or triads, maybe he did, those guys did not have all the info and ear training programs we got these days so what do you think they did to get that level of musicality? or is all about talent and I just better quit.

Learn music by ear. Learn lots of music by ear.


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[Alter]

I 've always thought learning and improving is the goal and the important stuff, how one does it is irrelevant. Different people enjoy different ways of learning. If you find something interesting in music, go for it and try to learn it, theory or practice. Music is endless and there's always new things to learn, no matter what sort of musician one is.

[Basshead]

I can scat sing almost anything against a bass pedal or in general, intervals, arpeggios, scales, modes, chords...I can sing the bass note of all basic chord progressions, I can sing back same thing, short phrases and melodies, I can sing some popular songs while doing basic comping (more difficult for me) for instance I like to play a comping with walking bass I know for Summertime with my foot on 1 and 3 or 2 and 4 with the metronome and sing summertime melody
with lyrics in a decent manner at the same time, to me this is an independence exercise (not ear training tho), I can transcribe blues, rock and slow Miles, Coltrane, Baker stuff easy or even sing back some of that, normally no more than 5 notes or so in a raw but if I practice a lot scatting and then sing back Im able to sing, for instance the first CP phrases of Billies bounce solo or most Miles Sowhat solo ...BUT... there are two things I totally suck.

1- Sing acapella something without the guitar or any reference, like sing something that you hear in your head, I can hear it and visualize the fingering on the guitar but I can not sing it, some people call this Audiation?

2- I can hear some chord progressions just by listening to the song without picking up the guitar but in general I suck at this, people freak out how can I sometimes pick really fast some jazz and flamenco tunes, chords, bass lines... and I dont hear some basic pop stuff, I mean if the chord prog is like stand by me or a minor IV or a blues, minor blues, stuff like that yes I can hear it, no need the instrument to figure it out but there are tons of other stuff that I just dont hear that suppose to be easy.

[AllanAllen]

2- I can hear some chord progressions just by listening to the song without picking up the guitar but in general I suck at this, people freak out how can I sometimes pick really fast some jazz and flamenco tunes, chords, bass lines... and I dont hear some basic pop stuff, I mean if the chord prog is like stand by me or a minor IV or a blues, minor blues, stuff like that yes I can hear it, no need the instrument to figure it out but there are tons of other stuff that I just dont hear that suppose to be easy.

This is my biggest weak spot. Paired with knowing too much, it's a recipe for disaster. I was trying to work out a live version of My Buckets Got A Hole in It by Louis Armstrong, I was making it so much harder that it is.

I know, in theory, all I need to do is practice this more, but it can be overwhelming and seriously not fun.

[brent.h]

This is my biggest weak spot. Paired with knowing too much, it's a recipe for disaster. I was trying to work out a live version of My Buckets Got A Hole in It by Louis Armstrong, I was making it so much harder that it is.

I know, in theory, all I need to do is practice this more, but it can be overwhelming and seriously not fun.

nice tune... pretty rock n roll.

i hear it as
2 bars of IV7, 2 bars of I,
1 bar of ii, 1 bar of V, 1 bar of I, 1 bar of I7

The thing i struggle with is basic billboard tunes, top 40s stuff. I dunno, but for some strange reason, I always confuse the IV and V chords because modern pop doesn't do the typical progressions I'm used to in jazz. I can hear all the other diatonic chords just fine. Just not the IV and V chords. If a progression plays something like iv, IV, I, V, yeah I can get it.. but if I hear something like I, IV, vi, IV, I, V, IV, vi, I, V... this trips me up all the time..

And yeah like basshead said...

Oh, vi going to #iv-7b5? Ok.
VII7 going to III7 and then i-6/9? Nice.
iii-7b5 to VI7/bIII to ii-7b5 to V7/bII? Cool, ya, play it.
I/III to biiio to ii-6 to V7b9? No problem!

billboard type stuff with cowboy chords in that crazy I, IV, vi, IV, I, V, IV, vi, I, V thing... no i can't play that shit. hard pass.

[Christian Miller]

nice tune... pretty rock n roll.

i hear it as
2 bars of IV7, 2 bars of I,
1 bar of ii, 1 bar of V, 1 bar of I, 1 bar of I7

The thing i struggle with is basic billboard tunes, top 40s stuff. I dunno, but for some strange reason, I always confuse the IV and V chords because modern pop doesn't do the typical progressions I'm used to in jazz. I can hear all the other diatonic chords just fine. Just not the IV and V chords. If a progression plays something like iv, IV, I, V, yeah I can get it.. but if I hear something like I, IV, vi, IV, I, V, IV, vi, I, V... this trips me up all the time..

And yeah like basshead said...

Oh, vi going to #iv-7b5? Ok.
VII7 going to III7 and then i-6/9? Nice.
iii-7b5 to VI7/bIII to ii-7b5 to V7/bII? Cool, ya, play it.
I/III to biiio to ii-6 to V7b9? No problem!

billboard type stuff with cowboy chords in that crazy I, IV, vi, IV, I, V, IV, vi, I, V thing... no i can't play that shit. hard pass.

Just work in education for a bit …. You’ll get the practice in taking down Olivia and Taylor tunes (but only the ones without swears). I have arrangements … :-)

I have to say Olivia is more interesting to transcribe than Tay-Tay

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[AllanAllen]

Just work in education for a bit …. You’ll get the practice in taking down Olivia and Taylor tunes (but only the ones without swears). I have arrangements … :-)

I have to say Olivia is more interesting to transcribe than Tay-Tay

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Olivia who?

[Basshead]

Yeah exactly, kinda funny right? is ike we got our ears more tuned into jazz harmony and simple billboard tunes sound alien to us, well lets be honest, when I used to play professionally in a function band and I had to play 120 gigs per year with about 80 songs or more of repertory I used to pick those tunes really fast just because your are playing those progressions all the time, most are similar, rock riffs same thing, you get used to it, train that muscle and then kinda loose it but seems confusing. I was warthing a docu the other day and there is this song in the background, no melody, just someone improv over some changes and without picking up the guitar Im like...oh that must be Take the a train and then yeah they play the melody so Im like, I can believe I can hear those changes and I dont pick songs from the radio on the fly anymore, i mean some are obvious for some are like so simple that I get confused LOL

I guess that why people like Janek talk about practice transcribe random pop tunes on the fly from Spotifly playlist from time to time to test your ear in other areas.

[Christian Miller]

Olivia who?

We live in very different worlds you and I….

Nonetheless I am reliably informed that I am super cringe.

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[PMB]

Most people assume that the 'meat' of that story was the hookers, but it's really that the 'completely by ear" Chet Baker could at least communicate things like "I like the 2 bars of B7 on How Deep Is The Ocean" ...

I thought everyone knew that trick of the trade. It's the world's oldest progression...

[Christian Miller]

Groan


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[Eugle]

I think people overcomplicate the intuition vs theory thing. It’s usually both. The more theory you learn, the more it becomes intuitive over time anyway.


Also, if you’re composing your own stuff, that’s already instinct + feel, not just logic.


I’m with you on the talent thing too. It’s more about consistency and curiosity. Same vibe as when you look at stuff like Khan Academy reviews, you realise progress mostly comes from putting the time in.


The players who actually grow are the ones using both, not just one or the other.

[paulkogut]

Some folks like the Bill Evans ii-V's. Chet liked the B7, as well as hookers...

PK

[Basshead]

Glad to see you guys keep interested in this thread, actually I find making my own website more difficult than ear training and stuff LOL

I just published my first book too, yeah Im weird I know

Miguel Dembora - Musician & Sonic Architect